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Re: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip

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  • Matej Klimes
    Like he says, it depends on the context, but I think you would have to be a bit careful using studeny cumak ! I was thinking about a situation where a bit of
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 2, 2009
      Like he says, it depends on the context, but I think you would have to be a bit careful using "studeny cumak"!

      I was thinking about a situation where a bit of emotion would normally be displayed, (by most people in some other countries), but where a Briton just smirks, raises an eyebrow, or does the stiff upper lip thing (is it actually done, or is it just a figure of speecvh??)... I agree studeny cumak is a bit specific, but it might be OK to describe one tiny aspect of SUL, if from an outsider's perspective and a bit pejoratively.. (which would be the way Americans would have meant SUJ when they came up with it, I suppose??)

      BTW Jamie, you're right about different expressions being used in the US, but this one was meant to describe Brits only, so it wouldn't be used at home unless a Briton was the subject, plus it caught on in England and became one of these "Brit. Eng expressions" Americans would laugh at, I suppose..


      Other nations may think it implies coldness,

      Yes, that's what an average Czech will think if they don't speak enopugh Eng and have not lived in Britain..


      but we Brits are quite proud of our stiff upper lip - not complaining, getting on with things, fortitude in adversity and all that.
      ... isn't it one of those old things that everybody clings to, though? Not saying I disagree or not like it, but the younger generations in UK seem to be a bit spoiled to bother with things like these..


      And for Britons a "stiff upper lip" is not something that marks you out as a snob - that is if you have your nose in the air.
      ... fair enough, it wouldn't among Brits, but it does/can have that feel (which may or may not be legitimate) to a continental person, as in someone who's too cool to be bothered - Britons wouldn't probably use SUJ in this context, but others may??


      I wish I could find my copy of that Miklos book, I'm sure he has an interesting definition..

      M





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matej Klimes
      This is what I meant when I suggested studeny cumak as one of possible translations for one of many forms of SUJ: One who has a stiff upper lip displays
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 2, 2009
        This is what I meant when I suggested studeny cumak as one of possible
        translations for one of many forms of SUJ:


        One who has a stiff upper lip displays fortitude in the face of adversity,
        or ***exercises self-restraint in the expression of emotion****

        But I agree studeny cumak might be a bit strong and is nearly always
        negative, whereas SUJ is meant to be positive, at least among BR ENG lips,
        so to speak..

        M
      • Sarka Rubkova
        Nebo se da taky hezky cesky rici nakrcil nos Sarka ... From: Matej Klimes Date: 2.1.2009 14:48:39 To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re:
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 2, 2009
          Nebo se da taky hezky cesky rici "nakrcil nos"

          Sarka

          -------Original Message-------

          From: Matej Klimes
          Date: 2.1.2009 14:48:39
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip

          Like he says, it depends on the context, but I think you would have to be a
          bit careful using "studeny cumak"!

          I was thinking about a situation where a bit of emotion would normally be
          displayed, (by most people in some other countries), but where a Briton just
          smirks, raises an eyebrow, or does the stiff upper lip thing (is it actually
          done, or is it just a figure of speecvh??)... I agree studeny cumak is a bit
          specific, but it might be OK to describe one tiny aspect of SUL, if from an
          outsider's perspective and a bit pejoratively.. (which would be the way
          Americans would have meant SUJ when they came up with it, I suppose??)

          BTW Jamie, you're right about different expressions being used in the US,
          but this one was meant to describe Brits only, so it wouldn't be used at
          home unless a Briton was the subject, plus it caught on in England and
          became one of these "Brit. Eng expressions" Americans would laugh at, I
          suppose..

          Other nations may think it implies coldness,

          Yes, that's what an average Czech will think if they don't speak enopugh Eng
          and have not lived in Britain..

          but we Brits are quite proud of our stiff upper lip - not complaining,
          getting on with things, fortitude in adversity and all that.
          ... isn't it one of those old things that everybody clings to, though? Not
          saying I disagree or not like it, but the younger generations in UK seem to
          be a bit spoiled to bother with things like these..

          And for Britons a "stiff upper lip" is not something that marks you out as a
          snob - that is if you have your nose in the air.
          ... fair enough, it wouldn't among Brits, but it does/can have that feel
          (which may or may not be legitimate) to a continental person, as in someone
          who's too cool to be bothered - Britons wouldn't probably use SUJ in this
          context, but others may??

          I wish I could find my copy of that Miklos book, I'm sure he has an
          interesting definition..

          M

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • spektrum2002
          Ja mam knizku od George Mikese How to be an alien . Neni to ta, co jsi cetl? Petr A.
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 2, 2009
            Ja mam knizku od George Mikese "How to be an alien". Neni to ta, co
            jsi cetl?
            Petr A.
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Libor Zajíèek" <libore@...> wrote:
            >>
            > Tu knihu od George Miklóse jsem kdysi èetl, ale neuvìdomil jsem si, ¾e
            > se tak jmenuje.
            >

            >
          • Matej Klimes
            Jo je, tak SUJ byla predpokladam jen kapitola? Kazdopadne to tam nekde musi byt.. M ... From: spektrum2002 To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 2, 2009
              Jo je, tak SUJ byla predpokladam jen kapitola? Kazdopadne to tam nekde musi byt..

              M


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: spektrum2002
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 3:12 PM
              Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip


              Ja mam knizku od George Mikese "How to be an alien". Neni to ta, co
              jsi cetl?
              Petr A.
              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Libor Zajíèek" <libore@...> wrote:
              >>
              > Tu knihu od George Miklóse jsem kdysi èetl, ale neuvìdomil jsem si, ¾e
              > se tak jmenuje.
              >

              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • hahna123
              Hi Jamie, I just recently joined this group and I looooved you reversed culture shock post! What a hoot! My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 5, 2009
                Hi Jamie,

                I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture
                shock" post! What a hoot!

                My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11
                years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is
                interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their
                Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called
                the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on
                regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I
                post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it
                otherwise).

                Thank you,

                Tanja

                PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out
                (www.czechmatediary.cz)
              • Romana
                Hi Tanja, Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If you want any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 5, 2009
                  Hi Tanja,



                  Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If you want
                  any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at
                  translators@..., and I will tell you my whole story. In short: Born
                  in CZ to Czech parents, grown up in Austria and Germany from age of 7 (but
                  always maintained close links to the CZ), found a new (the perfect) home in
                  Australia at age 38 (year 2000). My apologies to all other readers, I wasn't
                  able to find the way to contact Tanja directly. (Can't make any sense of
                  your 'PS', dear Tanja, either.)



                  Best regards,

                  Romana





                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of hahna123
                  Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:00 AM
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip



                  Hi Jamie,

                  I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture
                  shock" post! What a hoot!

                  My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11
                  years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is
                  interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their
                  Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called
                  the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on
                  regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I
                  post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it
                  otherwise).

                  Thank you,

                  Tanja

                  PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out
                  (www.czechmatediary.cz)





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jan Culka
                  If anyone is interested in the Tanja´s blog, it is .com, not .cz! Honza ... From: Romana To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:58 AM
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 5, 2009
                    If anyone is interested in the Tanja´s blog, it is .com, not .cz!
                    Honza






                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Romana
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:58 AM
                    Subject: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip


                    Hi Tanja,

                    Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If you want
                    any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at
                    translators@..., and I will tell you my whole story. In short: Born
                    in CZ to Czech parents, grown up in Austria and Germany from age of 7 (but
                    always maintained close links to the CZ), found a new (the perfect) home in
                    Australia at age 38 (year 2000). My apologies to all other readers, I wasn't
                    able to find the way to contact Tanja directly. (Can't make any sense of
                    your 'PS', dear Tanja, either.)

                    Best regards,

                    Romana

                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of hahna123
                    Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:00 AM
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip

                    Hi Jamie,

                    I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture
                    shock" post! What a hoot!

                    My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11
                    years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is
                    interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their
                    Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called
                    the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on
                    regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I
                    post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it
                    otherwise).

                    Thank you,

                    Tanja

                    PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out
                    (www.czechmatediary.cz)

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Tanja Zapletalova
                    Thanks Honza! Diky Honzo! ... From: Jan Culka Subject: Re: Should be Reversed Culture Shock - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 6, 2009
                      Thanks Honza!
                      Diky Honzo!

                      --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:
                      From: Jan Culka <culka@...>
                      Subject: Re: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:56 AM











                      If anyone is interested in the Tanja´s blog, it is .com, not ..cz!

                      Honza



                      ----- Original Message -----

                      From: Romana

                      To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com

                      Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:58 AM

                      Subject: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip



                      Hi Tanja,



                      Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If you want

                      any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at

                      translators@ bigpond.com, and I will tell you my whole story. In short: Born

                      in CZ to Czech parents, grown up in Austria and Germany from age of 7 (but

                      always maintained close links to the CZ), found a new (the perfect) home in

                      Australia at age 38 (year 2000). My apologies to all other readers, I wasn't

                      able to find the way to contact Tanja directly. (Can't make any sense of

                      your 'PS', dear Tanja, either.)



                      Best regards,



                      Romana



                      From: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf

                      Of hahna123

                      Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:00 AM

                      To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com

                      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip



                      Hi Jamie,



                      I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture

                      shock" post! What a hoot!



                      My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11

                      years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is

                      interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their

                      Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called

                      the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on

                      regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I

                      post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it

                      otherwise).



                      Thank you,



                      Tanja



                      PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out

                      (www.czechmatediary .cz)



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jan Culka
                      You are welcome, Tanja! H. ... From: Tanja Zapletalova To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Should be Reversed
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 6, 2009
                        You are welcome, Tanja!
                        H.


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Tanja Zapletalova
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 5:46 PM
                        Subject: Re: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip


                        Thanks Honza!
                        Diky Honzo!

                        --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:
                        From: Jan Culka <culka@...>
                        Subject: Re: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:56 AM

                        If anyone is interested in the Tanja´s blog, it is .com, not ..cz!

                        Honza

                        ----- Original Message -----

                        From: Romana

                        To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com

                        Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:58 AM

                        Subject: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip

                        Hi Tanja,

                        Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If you want

                        any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at

                        translators@ bigpond.com, and I will tell you my whole story. In short: Born

                        in CZ to Czech parents, grown up in Austria and Germany from age of 7 (but

                        always maintained close links to the CZ), found a new (the perfect) home in

                        Australia at age 38 (year 2000). My apologies to all other readers, I wasn't

                        able to find the way to contact Tanja directly. (Can't make any sense of

                        your 'PS', dear Tanja, either.)

                        Best regards,

                        Romana

                        From: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf

                        Of hahna123

                        Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:00 AM

                        To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com

                        Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip

                        Hi Jamie,

                        I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture

                        shock" post! What a hoot!

                        My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11

                        years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is

                        interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their

                        Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called

                        the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on

                        regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I

                        post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it

                        otherwise).

                        Thank you,

                        Tanja

                        PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out

                        (www.czechmatediary .cz)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Kirchner
                        Not reversed culture shock. It s reverse culture shock. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 6, 2009
                          Not "reversed" culture shock. It's "reverse" culture shock.

                          On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Tanja Zapletalova wrote:

                          > Thanks Honza!
                          > Diky Honzo!
                          >
                          > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:
                          > From: Jan Culka <culka@...>
                          > Subject: Re: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist]
                          > Re: stiff your upper lip
                          > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:56 AM
                          >
                          > If anyone is interested in the Tanja´s blog, it is .com, not ..cz!
                          >
                          > Honza
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                          > From: Romana
                          >
                          > To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com
                          >
                          > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:58 AM
                          >
                          > Subject: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re:
                          > stiff your upper lip
                          >
                          > Hi Tanja,
                          >
                          > Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If
                          > you want
                          >
                          > any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at
                          >
                          > translators@ bigpond.com, and I will tell you my whole story. In
                          > short: Born
                          >
                          > in CZ to Czech parents, grown up in Austria and Germany from age of
                          > 7 (but
                          >
                          > always maintained close links to the CZ), found a new (the perfect)
                          > home in
                          >
                          > Australia at age 38 (year 2000). My apologies to all other readers,
                          > I wasn't
                          >
                          > able to find the way to contact Tanja directly. (Can't make any
                          > sense of
                          >
                          > your 'PS', dear Tanja, either.)
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Romana
                          >
                          > From: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com]
                          > On Behalf
                          >
                          > Of hahna123
                          >
                          > Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:00 AM
                          >
                          > To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com
                          >
                          > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip
                          >
                          > Hi Jamie,
                          >
                          > I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture
                          >
                          > shock" post! What a hoot!
                          >
                          > My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11
                          >
                          > years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is
                          >
                          > interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their
                          >
                          > Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called
                          >
                          > the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on
                          >
                          > regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I
                          >
                          > post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it
                          >
                          > otherwise).
                          >
                          > Thank you,
                          >
                          > Tanja
                          >
                          > PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out
                          >
                          > (www.czechmatediary .cz)
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Romana
                          Of course, Jamie, thanks for the correction! Romana From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James Kirchner Sent:
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 6, 2009
                            Of course, Jamie, thanks for the correction!

                            Romana



                            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of James Kirchner
                            Sent: Wednesday, 7 January 2009 3:19 AM
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re: stiff
                            your upper lip



                            Not "reversed" culture shock. It's "reverse" culture shock.

                            On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:46 AM, Tanja Zapletalova wrote:

                            > Thanks Honza!
                            > Diky Honzo!
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Jan Culka <culka@...
                            <mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz> > wrote:
                            > From: Jan Culka <culka@... <mailto:culka%40marconi.ttc.cz> >
                            > Subject: Re: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist]
                            > Re: stiff your upper lip
                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:56 AM
                            >
                            > If anyone is interested in the Tanja´s blog, it is .com, not ..cz!
                            >
                            > Honza
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            >
                            > From: Romana
                            >
                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com
                            >
                            > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 1:58 AM
                            >
                            > Subject: Should be 'Reversed Culture Shock' - RE: [Czechlist] Re:
                            > stiff your upper lip
                            >
                            > Hi Tanja,
                            >
                            > Yes, I found this thread very interesting and entertaining, too! If
                            > you want
                            >
                            > any more material, you are welcome to contact me directly at
                            >
                            > translators@ bigpond.com, and I will tell you my whole story. In
                            > short: Born
                            >
                            > in CZ to Czech parents, grown up in Austria and Germany from age of
                            > 7 (but
                            >
                            > always maintained close links to the CZ), found a new (the perfect)
                            > home in
                            >
                            > Australia at age 38 (year 2000). My apologies to all other readers,
                            > I wasn't
                            >
                            > able to find the way to contact Tanja directly. (Can't make any
                            > sense of
                            >
                            > your 'PS', dear Tanja, either.)
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            >
                            > Romana
                            >
                            > From: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com]
                            > On Behalf
                            >
                            > Of hahna123
                            >
                            > Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 2:00 AM
                            >
                            > To: Czechlist@yahoogrou ps.com
                            >
                            > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: stiff your upper lip
                            >
                            > Hi Jamie,
                            >
                            > I just recently joined this group and I looooved you "reversed culture
                            >
                            > shock" post! What a hoot!
                            >
                            > My name is Tanja I am Czech but have been living in the US for 11
                            >
                            > years now. I have a blog for Czech and Slovaks (or anyone who is
                            >
                            > interested in our culture) which helps people connect with their
                            >
                            > Czech/Slovak roots while living abroad. One of my categories is called
                            >
                            > the "Stories of others" (where Jana from this group contributes on
                            >
                            > regular basis ;) and your story would be a great addition!!! Can I
                            >
                            > post it please? It would be anonymous of course (unless you want it
                            >
                            > otherwise).
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            >
                            > Tanja
                            >
                            > PS: blog name is Czechmate Diary if you want to Czech it out
                            >
                            > (www.czechmatediary .cz)
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >

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