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Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5krát

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  • Šárka Rubková
    Why?? Just because you say so?? Jamie said that three times bigger means bigger by 300% - this is obviously not true, see this example: 3 times bigger Scott
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 25, 2008
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      Why?? Just because you say so?? Jamie said that three times bigger means
      bigger by 300% - this is obviously not true, see this example:

      3 times bigger
      Scott Chapman from the California Institute of Technology presented the
      results of a survey of Andromeda's stellar motions here at the 206th Meeting
      of the American Astronomical Society.
      "What we have done is measured the radial velocity of stars in the outer
      regions - basically, how fast they are moving towards us or away from us,"
      Chapman said during a press conference this morning.
      Chapman was one of a team of astronomers using the Keck telescope to measure
      speeds of 5,000 stars in the outskirts of Andromeda. They were surprised to
      find that these suburban stars were actually rotating as if they were part
      of the galaxy's disk. Their paths had been expected to be more random.
      "Finding all these stars in an orderly rotation was the last explanation
      anyone would think of," Chapman said.
      The implication is that the disk is 220,000 light years in diameter, instead
      of the earlier estimates of 70,000 to 80,000 light years. In our sky, that
      means Andromeda stretches out over the length of 12 full Moons.
      I can add there 3times bigger that the original value - I am still saying
      the same as the article.
      I just chosen this article because there is value is said as well as the
      result

      s.
      -------Original Message-------

      From: Valerie Talacko
      Date: 25.10.2008 23:26:06
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5krát

      There is clearly a divergence in the meaning/usage of -krat and times in
      Czech and English. I know you found examples, but it is still considered
      incorrect and confusing in English to say 'three times smaller.' You'll have

      to trust us on this one.

      Valerie

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Sárka Rubková" <rubkova@...>
      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5krát

      Jamie, you wrote:
      --Not in English. You're right about the "a third smaller", but "three
      times smaller" in English means 300% less than the original value, so
      a negative value.

      "Three times larger" and "three times smaller" both mean in English
      that the result represents a 300% change from the original value.--
      Below is an excerpt from the American scientific article - all I can add
      that, with all respect, I do not believe you the above. I found much more
      examples that the expression x-times smaller or bigger (larger) is
      understood in the same way in America as here. Now I am sure that
      mathematical expressions are defined in the same way as in the Czech
      Republic and your misunderstanding of this logic rather results from your
      insufficiency or inability to understand it. Or maybe from wrong way of math
      teaching.
      You should not generalise your own opinion but just say: This is my opinion,
      this is the way I understand it. And in this case your opinion is erroneous.
      3 times bigger
      Scott Chapman from the California Institute of Technology presented the
      results of a survey of Andromeda's stellar motions here at the 206th Meeting
      of the American Astronomical Society.
      "What we have done is measured the radial velocity of stars in the outer
      regions - basically, how fast they are moving towards us or away from us,"
      Chapman said during a press conference this morning.
      Chapman was one of a team of astronomers using the Keck telescope to measure
      speeds of 5,000 stars in the outskirts of Andromeda. They were surprised to
      find that these suburban stars were actually rotating as if they were part
      of the galaxy's disk. Their paths had been expected to be more random.
      "Finding all these stars in an orderly rotation was the last explanation
      anyone would think of," Chapman said.
      The implication is that the disk is 220,000 light years in diameter, instead
      of the earlier estimates of 70,000 to 80,000 light years. In our sky, that
      means Andromeda stretches out over the length of 12 full Moons.

      -------Original Message-------

      From: James Kirchner
      Date: 25.10.2008 14:17:32
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5krát

      On Oct 25, 2008, at 6:28 AM, Sárka Rubková wrote:

      > "a third smaller" does not mean the same as "three times smaller".
      > The first
      > means that the result is calculated as follows (original value
      > divided by
      > three = x) followed by the original value minus x. The second phrase
      > means
      > (original value divided by 3)

      Not in English. You're right about the "a third smaller", but "three
      times smaller" in English means 300% less than the original value, so
      a negative value.

      "Three times larger" and "three times smaller" both mean in English
      that the result represents a 300% change from the original value.

      I think the confusion of the native English speakers on the list is
      ample evidence that a literal translation of the Czech expression
      leads English speakers to the wrong conclusion.

      > This idiom is a part of the mathematic science called "vyrokova
      > logika"
      > (statement logic??) and children learn it in their 4th grade - so
      > this idiom
      > is not so strange as some colleagues think.

      Well, it's very strange in English, and just because it represents 4th-
      grade mathematical material doesn't mean it transfers linguistically
      into another language. After all, every Czech 4th-grader knows what
      "sedmy pad" means, but it would be ridiculous to translate that
      expression when Czechs apply the term "sedmy pad" to English, as they
      sometimes do.

      Jamie

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      ------------------------------------

      Translators' tricks of the trade:
      http://czeng.wetpaint.com/

      Yahoo! Groups Links

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      ------------------------------------

      Translators' tricks of the trade:
      http://czeng.wetpaint.com/

      Yahoo! Groups Links





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Kirchner
      Sarka, you don t know what you re talking about. The excerpt says that the disk is 220,000 light years in diameter. Obviously, this is a rough figure. The
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 25, 2008
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        Sarka, you don't know what you're talking about.

        The excerpt says that the disk is 220,000 light years in diameter.
        Obviously, this is a rough figure. The previous estimates had been
        70,000 to 80,000. If you split the difference, and choose a rough
        number (which happens to be a repeating decimal) somewhere between
        those two smaller figures, then multiply it by 3, you get a number
        that is roughly 220,000. Therefore, the number is about size of the
        disk is very roughly 300% of what it had been roughly estimated
        before. That's what they mean by 3 times bigger.

        24 = 3 x 8
        24 is 300% of 8.
        Therefore, 24 is three times bigger than 8 -- by the logic of English.

        I hate to tell you, but you're arguing against three native speakers.
        I expect this type of arrogance from some Czech intellectuals, but so
        far I have never seen an anglophone on this list vehemently insisting
        that a native Czech speaker doesn't know his own language.

        Jamie

        On Oct 25, 2008, at 10:43 PM, ��rka Rubkov� wrote:

        > Why?? Just because you say so?? Jamie said that three times bigger
        > means
        > bigger by 300% - this is obviously not true, see this example:
        >
        > 3 times bigger
        > Scott Chapman from the California Institute of Technology presented
        > the
        > results of a survey of Andromeda's stellar motions here at the 206th
        > Meeting
        > of the American Astronomical Society.
        > "What we have done is measured the radial velocity of stars in the
        > outer
        > regions - basically, how fast they are moving towards us or away
        > from us,"
        > Chapman said during a press conference this morning.
        > Chapman was one of a team of astronomers using the Keck telescope to
        > measure
        > speeds of 5,000 stars in the outskirts of Andromeda. They were
        > surprised to
        > find that these suburban stars were actually rotating as if they
        > were part
        > of the galaxy's disk. Their paths had been expected to be more random.
        > "Finding all these stars in an orderly rotation was the last
        > explanation
        > anyone would think of," Chapman said.
        > The implication is that the disk is 220,000 light years in diameter,
        > instead
        > of the earlier estimates of 70,000 to 80,000 light years. In our
        > sky, that
        > means Andromeda stretches out over the length of 12 full Moons.
        > I can add there 3times bigger that the original value - I am still
        > saying
        > the same as the article.
        > I just chosen this article because there is value is said as well as
        > the
        > result
        >
        > s.
        > -------Original Message-------
        >
        > From: Valerie Talacko
        > Date: 25.10.2008 23:26:06
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5kr�t
        >
        > There is clearly a divergence in the meaning/usage of -krat and
        > times in
        > Czech and English. I know you found examples, but it is still
        > considered
        > incorrect and confusing in English to say 'three times smaller.'
        > You'll have
        >
        > to trust us on this one.
        >
        > Valerie
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "S�rka Rubkov�" <rubkova@...>
        > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 7:56 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5kr�t
        >
        > Jamie, you wrote:
        > --Not in English. You're right about the "a third smaller", but "three
        > times smaller" in English means 300% less than the original value, so
        > a negative value.
        >
        > "Three times larger" and "three times smaller" both mean in English
        > that the result represents a 300% change from the original value.--
        > Below is an excerpt from the American scientific article - all I can
        > add
        > that, with all respect, I do not believe you the above. I found much
        > more
        > examples that the expression x-times smaller or bigger (larger) is
        > understood in the same way in America as here. Now I am sure that
        > mathematical expressions are defined in the same way as in the Czech
        > Republic and your misunderstanding of this logic rather results from
        > your
        > insufficiency or inability to understand it. Or maybe from wrong way
        > of math
        > teaching.
        > You should not generalise your own opinion but just say: This is my
        > opinion,
        > this is the way I understand it. And in this case your opinion is
        > erroneous.
        > 3 times bigger
        > Scott Chapman from the California Institute of Technology presented
        > the
        > results of a survey of Andromeda's stellar motions here at the 206th
        > Meeting
        > of the American Astronomical Society.
        > "What we have done is measured the radial velocity of stars in the
        > outer
        > regions - basically, how fast they are moving towards us or away
        > from us,"
        > Chapman said during a press conference this morning.
        > Chapman was one of a team of astronomers using the Keck telescope to
        > measure
        > speeds of 5,000 stars in the outskirts of Andromeda. They were
        > surprised to
        > find that these suburban stars were actually rotating as if they
        > were part
        > of the galaxy's disk. Their paths had been expected to be more random.
        > "Finding all these stars in an orderly rotation was the last
        > explanation
        > anyone would think of," Chapman said.
        > The implication is that the disk is 220,000 light years in diameter,
        > instead
        > of the earlier estimates of 70,000 to 80,000 light years. In our
        > sky, that
        > means Andromeda stretches out over the length of 12 full Moons.
        >
        > -------Original Message-------
        >
        > From: James Kirchner
        > Date: 25.10.2008 14:17:32
        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: 4,5kr�t
        >
        > On Oct 25, 2008, at 6:28 AM, S�rka Rubkov� wrote:
        >
        > > "a third smaller" does not mean the same as "three times smaller".
        > > The first
        > > means that the result is calculated as follows (original value
        > > divided by
        > > three = x) followed by the original value minus x. The second phrase
        > > means
        > > (original value divided by 3)
        >
        > Not in English. You're right about the "a third smaller", but "three
        > times smaller" in English means 300% less than the original value, so
        > a negative value.
        >
        > "Three times larger" and "three times smaller" both mean in English
        > that the result represents a 300% change from the original value.
        >
        > I think the confusion of the native English speakers on the list is
        > ample evidence that a literal translation of the Czech expression
        > leads English speakers to the wrong conclusion.
        >
        > > This idiom is a part of the mathematic science called "vyrokova
        > > logika"
        > > (statement logic??) and children learn it in their 4th grade - so
        > > this idiom
        > > is not so strange as some colleagues think.
        >
        > Well, it's very strange in English, and just because it represents
        > 4th-
        > grade mathematical material doesn't mean it transfers linguistically
        > into another language. After all, every Czech 4th-grader knows what
        > "sedmy pad" means, but it would be ridiculous to translate that
        > expression when Czechs apply the term "sedmy pad" to English, as they
        > sometimes do.
        >
        > Jamie
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Translators' tricks of the trade:
        > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Translators' tricks of the trade:
        > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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