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Re: Off-topic: trying to find a French song -FOUND!!!

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  • kzgafas
    Pote co jsem ten song nasel, jsem tyto zpravy smazal, trochu nerozumim tomu, ze zde vidim odpovedi. Ackoli na druhe strane - off- topic to vlastn� take neni,
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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      Pote co jsem ten song nasel, jsem tyto zpravy smazal, trochu
      nerozumim tomu, ze zde vidim odpovedi. Ackoli na druhe strane - off-
      topic to vlastnì take neni, protoze jde o vyhledavani na vyhåedavaci.
      A vubec - obraceni pzornosti na pisen, ktera neni v anglictine, je
      vlastne zasluzne:-)

      K te verzi: libi se mi vsechny, ale kdybych je musel seradit, tak
      bych tomu dal: 1) France Gall, 2) Alizee, 3) Kate Ryan

      K.




      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Culka" <culka@...> wrote:
      >
      > Elle elle l´a nazpívala France Gall v 1987, a po ní ještě další
      (mj. Alizee, Kate Ryan).
      > Tak která verze se Ti tak moc líbí, Kostasi?
      > Honza
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: HSubrtova@...
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 10:13 AM
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Off-topic: trying to find a French
      song -FOUND!!!
      >
      >
      > Jestli to neni nahodou pisnicka od zpevacky Desireless- Voyage.
      Helena
      >
      > > ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
      > > Od: kzgafas <kzgafas@...>
      > > Předmět: [Czechlist] Re: Off-topic: trying to find a French
      song -FOUND!!!
      > > Datum: 26.8.08 23:35
      > > ----------------------------------------
      > > Tak dobry nasel jsem. Pro zajimavost je to tady:
      > >
      > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0KkZWEjGro
      > >
      > > Kate Ryan - Ella, Elle, L'a
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "kzgafas" <kzgafas@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Dovolte jeden dotaz: na rozhlasovych stanicich stanicich v CR
      davaji
      > > > docela casto jednu francouzskou pisnicku, (pokud to neni
      jedina
      > > > francouzska pisen, kterou u nas hrajou, tak urcite je to
      jedna z
      > > > nekolika mala). Moc bych ji chtel najit na Youtube.com,
      protoze se mi
      > > > libi, ale se svoji neznalosti francouzstiny nejsem schopen
      urcit
      > > jedine
      > > > klicove slovo, abych ji nasel. Zpiva ji zena-zpevacka.
      Nemuzete mi
      > > > nekdo pomoci a dat mi voditko? Takto polozeny dotaz muze znit
      trochu
      > > > naivne, ale kdo sem tam posloucha radio, tak ji musel slyset
      a
      > > nevsiml
      > > > jsem si, ze by tam franc pisnicek hrali hodne.
      > > >
      > > > Diky,
      > > >
      > > > K.
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • James Kirchner
      ... The thread has made me start thinking again about the difference between what kind of pop music gets popular in Europe as opposed to the US. Not even the
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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        On Aug 27, 2008, at 8:06 AM, kzgafas wrote:

        > K te verzi: libi se mi vsechny, ale kdybych je musel seradit, tak
        > bych tomu dal: 1) France Gall, 2) Alizee, 3) Kate Ryan

        The thread has made me start thinking again about the difference
        between what kind of pop music gets popular in Europe as opposed to
        the US. Not even the same American songs become popular in Europe as
        in the US.

        It seems to boil down mainly to this:

        -- American fans want to understand all or most of the words (whether
        in English or Spanish), and the styles can vary broadly.

        -- European fans want (or get) heavy synthesizers, a thumping disco
        beat, and usually one or two lines in English that everyone can
        understand.

        This plays out interestingly with someone like Shaggy, who is
        virtually unheard of in the US. His music fits the criteria, because
        he's got the thump and the repeated lines in beginners' English, which
        qualify him for European popularity. However, the main body of his
        songs is rapped in creole English, and outside of the Caribbean,
        nobody understands what the heck he's saying, which disqualifies him
        for popularity in the US.

        In Europe, it seems that the groups with so-called "meaningful lyrics"
        develop a cult following among avid language students, but otherwise
        people are satisfied with that "easy English" line or two. I suppose
        the same is true of foreign language music in the US.

        Jamie



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • libore@volny.cz
        Yes, the tastes are different. + I´d say even though the radios all over the world play usually in english plus some songs in the local tongue, they choose
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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          Yes, the tastes are different. + I´d say even though the radios all
          over the world play usually in english plus some songs in the local
          tongue, they choose different mix. I have noticed it in the UK. This
          may be because of the specific British musicality. Or perhaps they are
          playing fresh music, new songs and they have it firsthand.
          And I have noticed as well that Radio Ulster likes the american country
          music (or is it their own?), which is played just by Country Rádio
          in CZ as far I know.

          Libor



          > The thread has made me start thinking again about the
          > difference
          > between what kind of pop music gets popular in Europe
          > as opposed to
          > the US. Not even the same American songs become popular
          > in Europe as
          > in the US.
          >
          > It seems to boil down mainly to this:
          >
          > -- American fans want to understand all or most of
          > the words (whether
          > in English or Spanish), and the styles can vary broadly.
          >
          > -- European fans want (or get) heavy synthesizers,
          > a thumping disco
          > beat, and usually one or two lines in English that
          > everyone can
          > understand.
          >
          > This plays out interestingly with someone like Shaggy,
          > who is
          > virtually unheard of in the US. His music fits the
          > criteria, because
          > he's got the thump and the repeated lines in beginners'
          > English, which
          > qualify him for European popularity. However, the
          > main body of his
          > songs is rapped in creole English, and outside of the
          > Caribbean,
          > nobody understands what the heck he's saying, which
          > disqualifies him
          > for popularity in the US.
          >
          > In Europe, it seems that the groups with so-called
          > "meaningful lyrics"
          > develop a cult following among avid language students,
          > but otherwise
          > people are satisfied with that "easy English" line
          > or two. I suppose
          > the same is true of foreign language music in the US.
          >
          > Jamie
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >


          --
          Moje tel. číslo / My phone number: +420 608 309 684
        • James Kirchner
          I know I ve written you folks about the outrageously excessive information requirements for invoices in some European countries. Given that the invoice has to
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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            I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
            information requirements for invoices in some European countries.

            Given that the invoice has to require all of the information necessary
            for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing number,
            account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to send
            such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send them by
            ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the Nigerians
            need to drain your whole account.

            However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants me to
            send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me that
            I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told them
            that I did.

            After having had someone use my publicly available information to
            charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in my name
            and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing banking
            information unencrypted over the Internet.

            Am I being unreasonable?

            The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back in
            time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
            where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it wouldn't
            let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer a
            physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online retailing.

            It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
            banking information by snail mail once, and then have them invoice
            over the Internet without including it.

            Any thoughts?

            Jamie
          • Jennifer Hejtmánková
            Fax? jennifer ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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              Fax?

              jennifer

              On 27.8.2008, at 17:07, James Kirchner wrote:

              > I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
              > information requirements for invoices in some European countries.
              >
              > Given that the invoice has to require all of the information necessary
              > for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing number,
              > account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to send
              > such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send them by
              > ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the Nigerians
              > need to drain your whole account.
              >
              > However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants me to
              > send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me that
              > I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told them
              > that I did.
              >
              > After having had someone use my publicly available information to
              > charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in my name
              > and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing banking
              > information unencrypted over the Internet.
              >
              > Am I being unreasonable?
              >
              > The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back in
              > time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
              > where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it wouldn't
              > let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer a
              > physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online retailing.
              >
              > It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
              > banking information by snail mail once, and then have them invoice
              > over the Internet without including it.
              >
              > Any thoughts?
              >
              > Jamie
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Kirchner
              Hee, hee! Then I have to go back to the fax era! :-) Jamie ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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                Hee, hee! Then I have to go back to the fax era! :-)

                Jamie

                On Aug 27, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Jennifer Hejtmánková wrote:

                > Fax?
                >
                > jennifer
                >
                > On 27.8.2008, at 17:07, James Kirchner wrote:
                >
                > > I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
                > > information requirements for invoices in some European countries.
                > >
                > > Given that the invoice has to require all of the information
                > necessary
                > > for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing
                > number,
                > > account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to send
                > > such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send them
                > by
                > > ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the Nigerians
                > > need to drain your whole account.
                > >
                > > However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants me to
                > > send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me that
                > > I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told them
                > > that I did.
                > >
                > > After having had someone use my publicly available information to
                > > charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in my
                > name
                > > and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing banking
                > > information unencrypted over the Internet.
                > >
                > > Am I being unreasonable?
                > >
                > > The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back in
                > > time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
                > > where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it
                > wouldn't
                > > let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer a
                > > physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online retailing.
                > >
                > > It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
                > > banking information by snail mail once, and then have them invoice
                > > over the Internet without including it.
                > >
                > > Any thoughts?
                > >
                > > Jamie
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Matej Klimes
                I don t see how anyone could do anything with your account number, bank address, SWIFT code etc., other than send an invoice with your information on it so
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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                  I don't see how anyone could do anything with your account number, bank address, SWIFT code etc., other than send an invoice with your information on it so that you'd get their money..

                  That information is routinely displayed on Websites and letterheads

                  Credit card numbers etc. are a different matter, but you don't have to have those on invoices..

                  I'm only too happy to send invoices electronically and avoind Ceska posta, encryption is also an option alth' with invoices - which tend to be processed by low IT skill staff it may be counterproductive..

                  M


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: James Kirchner
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:09 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Billing issues


                  Hee, hee! Then I have to go back to the fax era! :-)

                  Jamie

                  On Aug 27, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Jennifer Hejtmánková wrote:

                  > Fax?
                  >
                  > jennifer
                  >
                  > On 27.8.2008, at 17:07, James Kirchner wrote:
                  >
                  > > I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
                  > > information requirements for invoices in some European countries.
                  > >
                  > > Given that the invoice has to require all of the information
                  > necessary
                  > > for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing
                  > number,
                  > > account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to send
                  > > such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send them
                  > by
                  > > ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the Nigerians
                  > > need to drain your whole account.
                  > >
                  > > However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants me to
                  > > send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me that
                  > > I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told them
                  > > that I did.
                  > >
                  > > After having had someone use my publicly available information to
                  > > charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in my
                  > name
                  > > and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing banking
                  > > information unencrypted over the Internet.
                  > >
                  > > Am I being unreasonable?
                  > >
                  > > The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back in
                  > > time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
                  > > where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it
                  > wouldn't
                  > > let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer a
                  > > physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online retailing.
                  > >
                  > > It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
                  > > banking information by snail mail once, and then have them invoice
                  > > over the Internet without including it.
                  > >
                  > > Any thoughts?
                  > >
                  > > Jamie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • kzgafas
                  It seems quite a routine practice to disclose one s own banking info in the order to get payment. It also depends on the security of your bank account or more
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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                    It seems quite a routine practice to disclose one's own banking info
                    in the order to get payment. It also depends on the security of your
                    bank account or more specifically on the protection of the access to
                    your account through internet (internet banking). And the disclosing
                    channel seems to be quite narrow - if it is an agency you know
                    something about.

                    K.


                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hee, hee! Then I have to go back to the fax era! :-)
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    > On Aug 27, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Jennifer Hejtmánková wrote:
                    >
                    > > Fax?
                    > >
                    > > jennifer
                    > >
                    > > On 27.8.2008, at 17:07, James Kirchner wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
                    > > > information requirements for invoices in some European
                    countries.
                    > > >
                    > > > Given that the invoice has to require all of the information
                    > > necessary
                    > > > for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing
                    > > number,
                    > > > account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to
                    send
                    > > > such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send
                    them
                    > > by
                    > > > ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the
                    Nigerians
                    > > > need to drain your whole account.
                    > > >
                    > > > However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants
                    me to
                    > > > send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me
                    that
                    > > > I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told
                    them
                    > > > that I did.
                    > > >
                    > > > After having had someone use my publicly available information
                    to
                    > > > charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in
                    my
                    > > name
                    > > > and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing
                    banking
                    > > > information unencrypted over the Internet.
                    > > >
                    > > > Am I being unreasonable?
                    > > >
                    > > > The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back
                    in
                    > > > time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
                    > > > where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it
                    > > wouldn't
                    > > > let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer
                    a
                    > > > physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online
                    retailing.
                    > > >
                    > > > It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
                    > > > banking information by snail mail once, and then have them
                    invoice
                    > > > over the Internet without including it.
                    > > >
                    > > > Any thoughts?
                    > > >
                    > > > Jamie
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Romana
                    Hello Jamie, I understand your position, as here – in Australia – most people are very secretive about their bank account details, too. Just yesterday, I
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 27, 2008
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                      Hello Jamie,



                      I understand your position, as here – in Australia – most people are very
                      secretive about their bank account details, too. Just yesterday, I have
                      heard from my vet, when I wanted to pay a $1,200 bill for a cat that died
                      anyway: “I am not giving my bank details out to anybody!”



                      I am not sure how advanced Nigerian defrauders are in handling and
                      manipulating personal information over the Internet, but just recently I
                      almost became victim of some conmen from KONGO advertising on the Internet
                      that they were looking for good homes for certain pets (in my case it was a
                      baby monkey seeking ‘adoption’, but they also offer dogs, cats, birds or
                      reptiles). They pretend to live in your own country, but far enough away to
                      prove it necessary that they have to send the animal by airplane. To arrange
                      transport, they request all sorts of personal information, including your
                      bank account details, writing “Unfortunately, it is not possible to
                      determine the exact amount required to cover the costs of transport in
                      advance. We fully understand if you don’t want to disclose your credit card
                      number, so just give us ....”. After that, I believe your concerns are fully
                      justified.



                      An idea: What about working with PayPal or Moneybookers? In this case, the
                      only ”bank account detail” there is would be your email address. Would the
                      Czech agency be happy with that?



                      Best regards,

                      Romana







                      From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of kzgafas
                      Sent: Thursday, 28 August 2008 9:29 AM
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Billing issues



                      It seems quite a routine practice to disclose one's own banking info
                      in the order to get payment. It also depends on the security of your
                      bank account or more specifically on the protection of the access to
                      your account through internet (internet banking). And the disclosing
                      channel seems to be quite narrow - if it is an agency you know
                      something about.

                      K.

                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                      James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hee, hee! Then I have to go back to the fax era! :-)
                      >
                      > Jamie
                      >
                      > On Aug 27, 2008, at 11:58 AM, Jennifer Hejtmánková wrote:
                      >
                      > > Fax?
                      > >
                      > > jennifer
                      > >
                      > > On 27.8.2008, at 17:07, James Kirchner wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
                      > > > information requirements for invoices in some European
                      countries.
                      > > >
                      > > > Given that the invoice has to require all of the information
                      > > necessary
                      > > > for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing
                      > > number,
                      > > > account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to
                      send
                      > > > such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send
                      them
                      > > by
                      > > > ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the
                      Nigerians
                      > > > need to drain your whole account.
                      > > >
                      > > > However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants
                      me to
                      > > > send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me
                      that
                      > > > I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told
                      them
                      > > > that I did.
                      > > >
                      > > > After having had someone use my publicly available information
                      to
                      > > > charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in
                      my
                      > > name
                      > > > and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing
                      banking
                      > > > information unencrypted over the Internet.
                      > > >
                      > > > Am I being unreasonable?
                      > > >
                      > > > The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back
                      in
                      > > > time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
                      > > > where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it
                      > > wouldn't
                      > > > let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer
                      a
                      > > > physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online
                      retailing.
                      > > >
                      > > > It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
                      > > > banking information by snail mail once, and then have them
                      invoice
                      > > > over the Internet without including it.
                      > > >
                      > > > Any thoughts?
                      > > >
                      > > > Jamie
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Josef Hlavac
                      Jamie, I think that your reluctant feeling stems from the very different way that invoices are settled and banking in general is done in the US and in CZ (or
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 28, 2008
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                        Jamie,

                        I think that your reluctant feeling stems from the very different way
                        that invoices are settled and banking in general is done in the US and
                        in CZ (or EU).

                        When you want to pay someone (e.g. settle an invoice):
                        - In the US, the easiest and most natural way is to send them a check.
                        It is very weird (and expensive), albeit possible, to use a wire transfer.
                        - In CZ (and most of EU, AFAIK), the easiest and most natural way is to
                        wire the money. It is very weird (and expensive), albeit possible, to
                        use a check.

                        To do a wire transfer ("bank transfer"), you need the recipient's name,
                        account number, as well as the bank's name, address and SWIFT code. To
                        deal with VAT issues properly, you also need the recipient's VAT
                        registration number. Hence, it is either customary (in some European
                        countries) or maybe even mandatory (in others) to include this sort of
                        information on the invoice - without it, the client can't pay you.
                        Naturally, you don't need any of that if you pay by check.

                        Recently, the ACH (Automated Clearing House) system has been established
                        in the US. From what I've read, it basically aims to provide the ease
                        and convenience that is similar to Czech bank transfers, as an
                        alternative to paper checks. However, in my opinion, the system is
                        rather insafe for account holders. One can easily issue a debit
                        transaction against someone else's account, and such (legitimate)
                        transactions are common. Even though these transactions need to be
                        authorized by the account holder first, one of the possible forms of
                        authorization consists of clicking an "I Agree" button on the other
                        party's website - and that is extremely easy to fake. Your only defence
                        is to review the transactions on your account very frequently and
                        immediately report anything unusual to your bank.

                        Conversely, in CZ, debit transactions against third-party accounts are
                        much more limited and rare. The most widely used exception is the "SIPO"
                        (single payment system for all utilities etc.), which is usually treated
                        separately. Money-lending institutions also like to use "inkaso",
                        meaning they take their due payments directly from your account.
                        However, all of these transactions require that you send a prior
                        authorization directly to your bank (not to the other party, as in ACH).
                        You also need to specify the other party's account number (money cannot
                        go anywhere else) and an upper limit for the amount of each transaction.
                        And a reasonable bank will always check the signature and ask for a
                        picture ID whenever someone claims to be an account holder (mine does :)

                        So, in my opinion, disclosing your US banking details may indeed present
                        a higher risk than disclosing your European banking details, and I
                        understand your unwillingness to share your account number. OTOH, it is
                        not perceived as a risk here in Europe - where, if the bank does its job
                        right, the information is not sufficient to get money out of your account.

                        My €0.02 :)

                        Josef

                        James Kirchner wrote:
                        > I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
                        > information requirements for invoices in some European countries.
                        >
                        > Given that the invoice has to require all of the information necessary
                        > for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing number,
                        > account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to send
                        > such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send them by
                        > ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the Nigerians
                        > need to drain your whole account.
                        >
                        > However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants me to
                        > send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me that
                        > I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told them
                        > that I did.
                        >
                        > After having had someone use my publicly available information to
                        > charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in my name
                        > and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing banking
                        > information unencrypted over the Internet.
                        >
                        > Am I being unreasonable?
                        >
                        > The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back in
                        > time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
                        > where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it wouldn't
                        > let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer a
                        > physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online retailing.
                        >
                        > It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
                        > banking information by snail mail once, and then have them invoice
                        > over the Internet without including it.
                        >
                        > Any thoughts?
                        >
                        > Jamie
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                        > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • James Kirchner
                        Thanks, Josef. The heat is off me for now, because the client has said I can send further invoices electronically without the banking information, as long as
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 28, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks, Josef. The heat is off me for now, because the client has
                          said I can send further invoices electronically without the banking
                          information, as long as I notify them when that information has changed.

                          I'm going to call my bank and see just how secure it is to give out
                          that information.

                          Jamie

                          On Aug 28, 2008, at 9:10 AM, Josef Hlavac wrote:

                          > Jamie,
                          >
                          > I think that your reluctant feeling stems from the very different way
                          > that invoices are settled and banking in general is done in the US and
                          > in CZ (or EU).
                          >
                          > When you want to pay someone (e.g. settle an invoice):
                          > - In the US, the easiest and most natural way is to send them a check.
                          > It is very weird (and expensive), albeit possible, to use a wire
                          > transfer.
                          > - In CZ (and most of EU, AFAIK), the easiest and most natural way is
                          > to
                          > wire the money. It is very weird (and expensive), albeit possible, to
                          > use a check.
                          >
                          > To do a wire transfer ("bank transfer"), you need the recipient's
                          > name,
                          > account number, as well as the bank's name, address and SWIFT code. To
                          > deal with VAT issues properly, you also need the recipient's VAT
                          > registration number. Hence, it is either customary (in some European
                          > countries) or maybe even mandatory (in others) to include this sort of
                          > information on the invoice - without it, the client can't pay you.
                          > Naturally, you don't need any of that if you pay by check.
                          >
                          > Recently, the ACH (Automated Clearing House) system has been
                          > established
                          > in the US. From what I've read, it basically aims to provide the ease
                          > and convenience that is similar to Czech bank transfers, as an
                          > alternative to paper checks. However, in my opinion, the system is
                          > rather insafe for account holders. One can easily issue a debit
                          > transaction against someone else's account, and such (legitimate)
                          > transactions are common. Even though these transactions need to be
                          > authorized by the account holder first, one of the possible forms of
                          > authorization consists of clicking an "I Agree" button on the other
                          > party's website - and that is extremely easy to fake. Your only
                          > defence
                          > is to review the transactions on your account very frequently and
                          > immediately report anything unusual to your bank.
                          >
                          > Conversely, in CZ, debit transactions against third-party accounts are
                          > much more limited and rare. The most widely used exception is the
                          > "SIPO"
                          > (single payment system for all utilities etc.), which is usually
                          > treated
                          > separately. Money-lending institutions also like to use "inkaso",
                          > meaning they take their due payments directly from your account.
                          > However, all of these transactions require that you send a prior
                          > authorization directly to your bank (not to the other party, as in
                          > ACH).
                          > You also need to specify the other party's account number (money
                          > cannot
                          > go anywhere else) and an upper limit for the amount of each
                          > transaction.
                          > And a reasonable bank will always check the signature and ask for a
                          > picture ID whenever someone claims to be an account holder (mine
                          > does :)
                          >
                          > So, in my opinion, disclosing your US banking details may indeed
                          > present
                          > a higher risk than disclosing your European banking details, and I
                          > understand your unwillingness to share your account number. OTOH, it
                          > is
                          > not perceived as a risk here in Europe - where, if the bank does its
                          > job
                          > right, the information is not sufficient to get money out of your
                          > account.
                          >
                          > My €0.02 :)
                          >
                          > Josef
                          >
                          > James Kirchner wrote:
                          >> I know I've written you folks about the outrageously excessive
                          >> information requirements for invoices in some European countries.
                          >>
                          >> Given that the invoice has to require all of the information
                          >> necessary
                          >> for anyone to access your bank account (bank address, routing number,
                          >> account number, SWIFT code, etc.), it seems very risky to me to send
                          >> such invoices over the Internet, so I print them out and send them by
                          >> ordinary mail. After all, it's more information than the Nigerians
                          >> need to drain your whole account.
                          >>
                          >> However, I got an e-mail today from a Czech agency that wants me to
                          >> send all that stuff over the Internet. They very kindly told me that
                          >> I didn't have to send it by ordinary post. I very kindly told them
                          >> that I did.
                          >>
                          >> After having had someone use my publicly available information to
                          >> charge services to my phone bill, open credit card accounts in my
                          >> name
                          >> and run up bills last year, I'm a bit paranoid about passing banking
                          >> information unencrypted over the Internet.
                          >>
                          >> Am I being unreasonable?
                          >>
                          >> The situation makes me feel like I'm being forced to step back in
                          >> time. It reminds me of the early days of Czech online retailing,
                          >> where Czech law would let you sell over the Internet, but it wouldn't
                          >> let people pay with a credit card unless they gave the retailer a
                          >> physical signature, which defeated the purpose of online retailing.
                          >>
                          >> It seems that it should be legal for companies to get a person's
                          >> banking information by snail mail once, and then have them invoice
                          >> over the Internet without including it.
                          >>
                          >> Any thoughts?
                          >>
                          >> Jamie
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ------------------------------------
                          >>
                          >> Translators' tricks of the trade:
                          >> http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Translators' tricks of the trade:
                          > http://czeng.wetpaint.com/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
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