Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: NS (or grammarian) needed: or in negative expression

Expand Messages
  • Jan Vaněk jr.
    ... My maths training never lets me forget that a negation of disjunction is a conjunction of negations, and I tried to argue so in the debate that brought me
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 2 4:14 AM
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...> wrote:

      > :-) Don't forget, English 'or' can yield a 'conjunctive'
      > interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that's what it says here:
      > http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html

      My maths training never lets me forget that a negation of disjunction
      is a conjunction of negations, and I tried to argue so in the debate
      that brought me here for the ultimate (read: perhaps more inclined
      to my point the previous ones ;-) authority, but it isn't always
      so easy in natural languages - or at the very least, I was thinking
      too much in Czech, which is apparently closer to Japanese than to
      English.

      Might this be another vestige of, IIRC/ISTR, the influence of
      mathematics during the 17th (or 18th?) century that was purportedly
      the main reason for prescribing the double negative out of English?

      Thanks to all who replied!

      --
      Jan Vanek jr.
    • Gerald Turner
      Dear Jan, Changing the subject: could I suggest that you replace the e s hackem with a plain e in your email address? Gerry ... -- Czech-In Translations V
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 2 4:41 AM
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Jan,

        Changing the subject: could I suggest that you replace the "e s hackem"
        with a plain "e" in your email address?

        Gerry

        On 02/04/2008, Jan Vaněk jr. <jan.vanek.jr@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
        >
        > > :-) Don't forget, English 'or' can yield a 'conjunctive'
        > > interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that's what it says here:
        > > http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html
        >
        > My maths training never lets me forget that a negation of disjunction
        > is a conjunction of negations, and I tried to argue so in the debate
        > that brought me here for the ultimate (read: perhaps more inclined
        > to my point the previous ones ;-) authority, but it isn't always
        > so easy in natural languages - or at the very least, I was thinking
        > too much in Czech, which is apparently closer to Japanese than to
        > English.
        >
        > Might this be another vestige of, IIRC/ISTR, the influence of
        > mathematics during the 17th (or 18th?) century that was purportedly
        > the main reason for prescribing the double negative out of English?
        >
        > Thanks to all who replied!
        >
        > --
        > Jan Vanek jr.
        >
        >
        >



        --
        Czech-In Translations
        V lesíčku 5
        150 00 Prague 5
        Czech Republic
        Tel/fax: ++ 420 235 357 194

        To see a World in a Grain of Sand
        And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
        Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
        And Eternity in an hour.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • melvyn.geo
        ... I can t help you and cook dinner. = I can t do both at the same time. Hmmm OK, I feel AND could well be marked for expressiveness here and might often be
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2 4:45 AM
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
          "I can't help you and cook dinner."
          = I can't do both at the same time.

          Hmmm OK, I feel AND could well be marked for expressiveness here and
          might often be uttered with emphasis, if it is in the sense of "I
          can't help you with your homework AND cook your dinner" = "I don't
          have two ***** pairs of hands, you know!"

          However, the situation is surely complicated by the possibility of
          hendiadys: "I can't help you and cook dinner" = "I can't help you to
          cook dinner" or "I can't help you by cooking the dinner" on the same
          model as: Don't try and help him = don't try to help him.

          Going off on this tangent for a moment, Jarmila Tarnyiková deals with
          this hendiadys issue in her excellent Sentence Complexes in Text.
          Other (positive) examples she takes from the British National Corpus:
          Be sure and get paid for everything = Be sure to get paid for everything.
          Could I start and remind delegates... = Could I start by reminding
          delegates...
          Be an angel and shut up = Mlc s drzkou anebo dostanes (OK no hits on
          Google for this, but I swear that's what I've heard in Kladno :-O, but
          I digress).

          "Hendiadys presents a formidable problem for the analyst as well as
          for ESL acquisition. The problem of how to distinguish between two
          separate predications and hendiadys is also of relevance to the
          processes of translating and interpreting." (p. 112 ibid)

          "I can't help you or cook dinner."
          = I can't do either of them at all.

          This strikes me as being the more common unmarked form in a negative
          sentence.

          BR

          M.
        • James Kirchner
          ... Yes, that s very probable, although I have no idea what IIRC/ISTR means. The grammarians of the 17th and 18th century forced a lot of rules on English
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 2 10:06 AM
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            On Apr 2, 2008, at 7:14 AM, Jan Vaněk jr. wrote:

            > Might this be another vestige of, IIRC/ISTR, the influence of
            > mathematics during the 17th (or 18th?) century that was purportedly
            > the main reason for prescribing the double negative out of English?

            Yes, that's very probable, although I have no idea what "IIRC/ISTR"
            means.

            The grammarians of the 17th and 18th century forced a lot of rules on
            English that were very unnatural to the language, based on their
            assumption that Latin was more perfect and more rational. However,
            when they didn't like some characteristic of English that was similar
            to one in Latin -- such as double negatives -- they ignored Latin and
            used math as their rationale.

            Jamie



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Veselý Petr
            Hello everybody, I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the context of Company Register Information. The document says : Last
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 2 11:22 PM
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello everybody,

              I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the context of Company Register Information.

              The document says :

              Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
              Next accounts due
              Last return made up to
              Next return due

              Accounts of XYZ company made up to
              Return made up to 24/01/2007

              Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" - ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?

              TIA
              Petr



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Matej Klimes
              posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd... M ... From: Veselý Petr To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 2 11:40 PM
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd...

                M

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Veselý Petr
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22 AM
                Subject: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information


                Hello everybody,

                I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the context of Company Register Information.

                The document says :

                Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                Next accounts due
                Last return made up to
                Next return due

                Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                Return made up to 24/01/2007

                Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" - ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?

                TIA
                Petr

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Martin Janda
                Presne tak. Martin
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 2 11:53 PM
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Presne tak.
                  Martin

                  Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                  >
                  >
                  > posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd...
                  >
                  > M
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Veselý Petr
                  > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22 AM
                  > Subject: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information
                  >
                  > Hello everybody,
                  >
                  > I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the
                  > context of Company Register Information.
                  >
                  > The document says :
                  >
                  > Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                  > Next accounts due
                  > Last return made up to
                  > Next return due
                  >
                  > Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                  > Return made up to 24/01/2007
                  >
                  > Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" -
                  > ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?
                  >
                  > TIA
                  > Petr
                • Veselý Petr
                  Diky, chlapi, není tam kontext a ja mam ted obdobi, kdy mi to moc nepali, tak jste mi vytrhli trn z paty. Petr ... From: Martin Janda To:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 3 12:21 AM
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Diky, chlapi,

                    není tam kontext a ja mam ted obdobi, kdy mi to moc nepali, tak jste mi vytrhli trn z paty.

                    Petr

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Martin Janda
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:53 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information


                    Presne tak.
                    Martin

                    Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                    >
                    >
                    > posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd...
                    >
                    > M
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Veselý Petr
                    > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22 AM
                    > Subject: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information
                    >
                    > Hello everybody,
                    >
                    > I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the
                    > context of Company Register Information.
                    >
                    > The document says :
                    >
                    > Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                    > Next accounts due
                    > Last return made up to
                    > Next return due
                    >
                    > Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                    > Return made up to 24/01/2007
                    >
                    > Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" -
                    > ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?
                    >
                    > TIA
                    > Petr




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.