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Re: NS (or grammarian) needed: or in negative expression

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  • melvyn.geo
    Hello Honza, ... interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that s what it says here: http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html E.g. Junior didn t eat the
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 1, 2008
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      Hello Honza,

      :-) Don't forget, English 'or' can yield a 'conjunctive'
      interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that's what it says here:
      http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html

      E.g. Junior didn't eat the carrot or the pepper = he didn't eat the
      carrot AND he didn't eat the pepper = he ate neither the carrot nor
      the pepper.

      For your 'mutually exclusive' idea to be expressed, I would look for
      an EITHER/OR construction.

      Fascinating stuff.

      M.

      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Vaněk jr."
      <jan.vanek.jr@...> wrote:
      >
      > From a Dilbert comics:
      >
      > D: My project is on hold. Do you need any help on yours?
      > Alice: Sure. Call these customers and tell them we can't deliver
      > on time or with the features they need.
      > D: Do you have any tasks that *don't* feel like getting waterboarded
      > on your birthday?
      > A: And tell them the price went up.
      >
      > Now, does the "or" (rather) mean "neither-nor" (with the punchline
      > completing the triad), or a "one or the other" tradeoff (as I'm
      > told is the custom for IT, by definition of software development
      > which ensures at least something is always there to deliver),
      > i. e., interestingly, the same thing the sentence would mean
      > without the "not"?
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > --
      > Jan Vanìk jr. - http://twitter.com/jvjr - same username at Gmail
      >
      > A translation from Talpress: the guy who was writing
      > sensible-but-radical posts to various newsgroups I hung out in
      > - ten kluk, který psal chytré, ale radikální èlánky do
      > rozlièných novin, kterých jsem si vždycky všimnul ...
      >
    • James Kirchner
      I can t help you and cook dinner. = I can t do both at the same time. I can t help you or cook dinner. = I can t do either of them at all. Jamie ...
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 1, 2008
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        "I can't help you and cook dinner."
        = I can't do both at the same time.

        "I can't help you or cook dinner."
        = I can't do either of them at all.

        Jamie

        On Apr 1, 2008, at 7:38 PM, melvyn.geo wrote:

        > Hello Honza,
        >
        > :-) Don't forget, English 'or' can yield a 'conjunctive'
        > interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that's what it says here:
        > http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html
        >
        > E.g. Junior didn't eat the carrot or the pepper = he didn't eat the
        > carrot AND he didn't eat the pepper = he ate neither the carrot nor
        > the pepper.
        >
        > For your 'mutually exclusive' idea to be expressed, I would look for
        > an EITHER/OR construction.
        >
        > Fascinating stuff.
        >
        > M.
        >
        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Vaněk jr."
        > <jan.vanek.jr@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > From a Dilbert comics:
        > >
        > > D: My project is on hold. Do you need any help on yours?
        > > Alice: Sure. Call these customers and tell them we can't deliver
        > > on time or with the features they need.
        > > D: Do you have any tasks that *don't* feel like getting waterboarded
        > > on your birthday?
        > > A: And tell them the price went up.
        > >
        > > Now, does the "or" (rather) mean "neither-nor" (with the punchline
        > > completing the triad), or a "one or the other" tradeoff (as I'm
        > > told is the custom for IT, by definition of software development
        > > which ensures at least something is always there to deliver),
        > > i. e., interestingly, the same thing the sentence would mean
        > > without the "not"?
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > >
        > > --
        > > Jan Van�k jr. - http://twitter.com/jvjr - same username at Gmail
        > >
        > > A translation from Talpress: the guy who was writing
        > > sensible-but-radical posts to various newsgroups I hung out in
        > > - ten kluk, kter� psal chytr�, ale radik�ln� �l�nky do
        > > rozli�n�ch novin, kter�ch jsem si v�dycky v�imnul ...
        > >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jan Vaněk jr.
        ... My maths training never lets me forget that a negation of disjunction is a conjunction of negations, and I tried to argue so in the debate that brought me
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...> wrote:

          > :-) Don't forget, English 'or' can yield a 'conjunctive'
          > interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that's what it says here:
          > http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html

          My maths training never lets me forget that a negation of disjunction
          is a conjunction of negations, and I tried to argue so in the debate
          that brought me here for the ultimate (read: perhaps more inclined
          to my point the previous ones ;-) authority, but it isn't always
          so easy in natural languages - or at the very least, I was thinking
          too much in Czech, which is apparently closer to Japanese than to
          English.

          Might this be another vestige of, IIRC/ISTR, the influence of
          mathematics during the 17th (or 18th?) century that was purportedly
          the main reason for prescribing the double negative out of English?

          Thanks to all who replied!

          --
          Jan Vanek jr.
        • Gerald Turner
          Dear Jan, Changing the subject: could I suggest that you replace the e s hackem with a plain e in your email address? Gerry ... -- Czech-In Translations V
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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            Dear Jan,

            Changing the subject: could I suggest that you replace the "e s hackem"
            with a plain "e" in your email address?

            Gerry

            On 02/04/2008, Jan Vaněk jr. <jan.vanek.jr@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
            >
            > > :-) Don't forget, English 'or' can yield a 'conjunctive'
            > > interpretation in negative sentences. Well, that's what it says here:
            > > http://www.ling.umd.edu/cnl/lunch/goro.html
            >
            > My maths training never lets me forget that a negation of disjunction
            > is a conjunction of negations, and I tried to argue so in the debate
            > that brought me here for the ultimate (read: perhaps more inclined
            > to my point the previous ones ;-) authority, but it isn't always
            > so easy in natural languages - or at the very least, I was thinking
            > too much in Czech, which is apparently closer to Japanese than to
            > English.
            >
            > Might this be another vestige of, IIRC/ISTR, the influence of
            > mathematics during the 17th (or 18th?) century that was purportedly
            > the main reason for prescribing the double negative out of English?
            >
            > Thanks to all who replied!
            >
            > --
            > Jan Vanek jr.
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Czech-In Translations
            V lesíčku 5
            150 00 Prague 5
            Czech Republic
            Tel/fax: ++ 420 235 357 194

            To see a World in a Grain of Sand
            And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
            Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
            And Eternity in an hour.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • melvyn.geo
            ... I can t help you and cook dinner. = I can t do both at the same time. Hmmm OK, I feel AND could well be marked for expressiveness here and might often be
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
              "I can't help you and cook dinner."
              = I can't do both at the same time.

              Hmmm OK, I feel AND could well be marked for expressiveness here and
              might often be uttered with emphasis, if it is in the sense of "I
              can't help you with your homework AND cook your dinner" = "I don't
              have two ***** pairs of hands, you know!"

              However, the situation is surely complicated by the possibility of
              hendiadys: "I can't help you and cook dinner" = "I can't help you to
              cook dinner" or "I can't help you by cooking the dinner" on the same
              model as: Don't try and help him = don't try to help him.

              Going off on this tangent for a moment, Jarmila Tarnyiková deals with
              this hendiadys issue in her excellent Sentence Complexes in Text.
              Other (positive) examples she takes from the British National Corpus:
              Be sure and get paid for everything = Be sure to get paid for everything.
              Could I start and remind delegates... = Could I start by reminding
              delegates...
              Be an angel and shut up = Mlc s drzkou anebo dostanes (OK no hits on
              Google for this, but I swear that's what I've heard in Kladno :-O, but
              I digress).

              "Hendiadys presents a formidable problem for the analyst as well as
              for ESL acquisition. The problem of how to distinguish between two
              separate predications and hendiadys is also of relevance to the
              processes of translating and interpreting." (p. 112 ibid)

              "I can't help you or cook dinner."
              = I can't do either of them at all.

              This strikes me as being the more common unmarked form in a negative
              sentence.

              BR

              M.
            • James Kirchner
              ... Yes, that s very probable, although I have no idea what IIRC/ISTR means. The grammarians of the 17th and 18th century forced a lot of rules on English
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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                On Apr 2, 2008, at 7:14 AM, Jan Vaněk jr. wrote:

                > Might this be another vestige of, IIRC/ISTR, the influence of
                > mathematics during the 17th (or 18th?) century that was purportedly
                > the main reason for prescribing the double negative out of English?

                Yes, that's very probable, although I have no idea what "IIRC/ISTR"
                means.

                The grammarians of the 17th and 18th century forced a lot of rules on
                English that were very unnatural to the language, based on their
                assumption that Latin was more perfect and more rational. However,
                when they didn't like some characteristic of English that was similar
                to one in Latin -- such as double negatives -- they ignored Latin and
                used math as their rationale.

                Jamie



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              • Veselý Petr
                Hello everybody, I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the context of Company Register Information. The document says : Last
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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                  Hello everybody,

                  I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the context of Company Register Information.

                  The document says :

                  Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                  Next accounts due
                  Last return made up to
                  Next return due

                  Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                  Return made up to 24/01/2007

                  Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" - ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?

                  TIA
                  Petr



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matej Klimes
                  posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd... M ... From: Veselý Petr To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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                    posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd...

                    M

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Veselý Petr
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22 AM
                    Subject: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information


                    Hello everybody,

                    I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the context of Company Register Information.

                    The document says :

                    Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                    Next accounts due
                    Last return made up to
                    Next return due

                    Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                    Return made up to 24/01/2007

                    Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" - ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?

                    TIA
                    Petr

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Martin Janda
                    Presne tak. Martin
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 2, 2008
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                      Presne tak.
                      Martin

                      Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                      >
                      >
                      > posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd...
                      >
                      > M
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Veselý Petr
                      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22 AM
                      > Subject: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information
                      >
                      > Hello everybody,
                      >
                      > I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the
                      > context of Company Register Information.
                      >
                      > The document says :
                      >
                      > Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                      > Next accounts due
                      > Last return made up to
                      > Next return due
                      >
                      > Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                      > Return made up to 24/01/2007
                      >
                      > Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" -
                      > ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?
                      >
                      > TIA
                      > Petr
                    • Veselý Petr
                      Diky, chlapi, není tam kontext a ja mam ted obdobi, kdy mi to moc nepali, tak jste mi vytrhli trn z paty. Petr ... From: Martin Janda To:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 3, 2008
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                        Diky, chlapi,

                        není tam kontext a ja mam ted obdobi, kdy mi to moc nepali, tak jste mi vytrhli trn z paty.

                        Petr

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Martin Janda
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:53 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information


                        Presne tak.
                        Martin

                        Matej Klimes napsal(a):
                        >
                        >
                        > posledni ucetni uzaverka a posledni danove priznani (podano) atd...
                        >
                        > M
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Veselý Petr
                        > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 8:22 AM
                        > Subject: [Czechlist] "Accounts" and "Return" in Company Register Information
                        >
                        > Hello everybody,
                        >
                        > I would appreciate help with the explanation of the above terms in the
                        > context of Company Register Information.
                        >
                        > The document says :
                        >
                        > Last accounts made up to: 24/01/2000
                        > Next accounts due
                        > Last return made up to
                        > Next return due
                        >
                        > Accounts of XYZ company made up to
                        > Return made up to 24/01/2007
                        >
                        > Does "return" mean simply "zisk"? What do they mean by "accounts" -
                        > ucetni vykazy, zakaznici, ucty, something else?
                        >
                        > TIA
                        > Petr




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