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Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

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  • Valerie Talacko
    p.s. I d use elementary school by choice, though. ... From: Valerie Talacko To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM Subject:
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 2 4:30 AM
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      p.s. I'd use 'elementary school' by choice, though.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Valerie Talacko
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu


      I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

      The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

      Valerie

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: James Kirchner
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

      On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

      > But in this case I chickened out
      > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
      > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
      > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

      I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

      The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
      doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
      how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
      terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
      insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

      One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
      which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
      education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
      term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
      Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
      school".

      Jamie

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    • James Kirchner
      ... I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which would alternatively be
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 2 4:43 AM
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        On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

        > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
        > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
        > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
        > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
        >

        I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
        equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
        would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
        to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

        If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
        years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
        Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
        sounding foreignism.

        > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
        > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
        >

        I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
        because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
        instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

        The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
        school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
        in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

        Jamie
      • melvyn.geo
        FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha) suggests basic school for zakladni skola with the rider: timto terminem se anglicky
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 2 4:47 AM
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          FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha)
          suggests 'basic school' for 'zakladni skola' with the rider: timto
          terminem se anglicky oznacuje jak ceska ZS, tak zakladni skola v
          nekterych zemich, napr. svedska Grundskola; presto je vhodne v
          prekladu do AJ specifikovat, ze jde o skolu s primarnim a nizsim
          sekundarnim stupnem podle ISCED 1997.

          BTW I see there is no actual mention of any 'basic school' in ISCED 1997:
          www.unesco.org/education/information/nfsunesco/doc/isced_1997.htm

          BR

          M.

          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
          different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
          that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
          understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
          >
          > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
          think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
        • Valerie Talacko
          But primary school in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn t be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that s
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2 4:59 AM
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            But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age range?

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: James Kirchner
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:43 PM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



            On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

            > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
            > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
            > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
            > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
            >

            I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
            equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
            would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
            to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

            If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
            years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
            Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
            sounding foreignism.

            > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
            > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
            >

            I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
            because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
            instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

            The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
            school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
            in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

            Jamie





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          • James Kirchner
            ... In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean the same thing. A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2 5:24 AM
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              On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

              > But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age
              > 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary
              > school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age
              > range?
              >

              In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean
              the same thing.

              A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
              from kindergarten (age 5) to 5th or 6th grade (age 10 or 11),
              depending on the configuration in the particular district.

              A private or charter elementary / primary / grammar school usually
              goes from kindergarten or 1st grade (age 5 or 6) to the 8th grade
              (age 13). (A charter school is an independent school that is
              chartered by the state and is not governed by the district.)

              We don't make any verbal distinction between the two types of school
              based on number of years. We only distinguish public from private,
              and the rest is assumed. So a zakladni skola is still exactly
              equivalent to one common type of American elementary school.

              Jamie
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