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Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

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  • Liz Spacilova
    Thanks, Jamie - that helped and I agree, they certainly do seem to match. Next time I come across this in a more normal translation (this one was a typical
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
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      Thanks, Jamie - that helped and I agree, they certainly do seem to
      match. Next time I come across this in a more normal translation
      (this one was a typical ministry document filled with run-on
      sentences and citations to section paragraph letter blah-blah-blah
      that was going to get rubber-stamped), I'll use American English and
      do the college / university thing. But in this case I chickened out
      and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
      university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
      Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

      Liz


      > This where the international weirdness starts, and it's VERY
      > complicated. Just check this web page:
      >
      > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
      > What_is_the_difference_between_a_college_and_a_university


      > Compare it to this description on a Czech-language site:
      > http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vysok%c3%83%c2%a1_%c3%85%c2%a1kola
    • James Kirchner
      ... I think that was a good decision under the circumstances. The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that doesn t have much to do
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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        On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

        > But in this case I chickened out
        > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
        > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
        > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

        I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

        The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
        doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
        how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
        terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
        insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

        One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
        which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
        education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
        term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
        Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
        school".

        Jamie



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Valerie Talacko
        I don t think basic school is Czenglish. When you re describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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          I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

          The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

          Valerie

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: James Kirchner
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



          On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

          > But in this case I chickened out
          > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
          > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
          > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

          I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

          The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
          doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
          how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
          terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
          insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

          One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
          which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
          education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
          term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
          Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
          school".

          Jamie

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Valerie Talacko
          p.s. I d use elementary school by choice, though. ... From: Valerie Talacko To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM Subject:
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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            p.s. I'd use 'elementary school' by choice, though.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Valerie Talacko
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu


            I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

            The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

            Valerie

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: James Kirchner
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

            On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

            > But in this case I chickened out
            > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
            > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
            > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

            I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

            The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
            doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
            how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
            terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
            insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

            One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
            which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
            education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
            term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
            Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
            school".

            Jamie

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Kirchner
            ... I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which would alternatively be
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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              On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

              > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
              > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
              > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
              > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
              >

              I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
              equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
              would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
              to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

              If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
              years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
              Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
              sounding foreignism.

              > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
              > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
              >

              I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
              because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
              instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

              The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
              school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
              in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

              Jamie
            • melvyn.geo
              FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha) suggests basic school for zakladni skola with the rider: timto terminem se anglicky
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha)
                suggests 'basic school' for 'zakladni skola' with the rider: timto
                terminem se anglicky oznacuje jak ceska ZS, tak zakladni skola v
                nekterych zemich, napr. svedska Grundskola; presto je vhodne v
                prekladu do AJ specifikovat, ze jde o skolu s primarnim a nizsim
                sekundarnim stupnem podle ISCED 1997.

                BTW I see there is no actual mention of any 'basic school' in ISCED 1997:
                www.unesco.org/education/information/nfsunesco/doc/isced_1997.htm

                BR

                M.

                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...> wrote:
                >
                > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                >
                > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
              • Valerie Talacko
                But primary school in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn t be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that s
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                  But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age range?

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: James Kirchner
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



                  On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                  > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                  > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                  > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                  > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                  >

                  I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
                  equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
                  would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
                  to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

                  If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
                  years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
                  Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
                  sounding foreignism.

                  > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                  > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                  >

                  I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
                  because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
                  instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

                  The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
                  school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
                  in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

                  Jamie





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Kirchner
                  ... In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean the same thing. A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
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                    On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                    > But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age
                    > 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary
                    > school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age
                    > range?
                    >

                    In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean
                    the same thing.

                    A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
                    from kindergarten (age 5) to 5th or 6th grade (age 10 or 11),
                    depending on the configuration in the particular district.

                    A private or charter elementary / primary / grammar school usually
                    goes from kindergarten or 1st grade (age 5 or 6) to the 8th grade
                    (age 13). (A charter school is an independent school that is
                    chartered by the state and is not governed by the district.)

                    We don't make any verbal distinction between the two types of school
                    based on number of years. We only distinguish public from private,
                    and the rest is assumed. So a zakladni skola is still exactly
                    equivalent to one common type of American elementary school.

                    Jamie
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