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Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

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  • James Kirchner
    ... This where the international weirdness starts, and it s VERY complicated. Just check this web page: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
      On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:50 AM, coilinoc wrote:

      > I think we'd just call this a "third-level college" in Ireland (the
      > Brits would probably call it a "tertiary college") or simply
      > "institute of higher education". The expression "non-university"
      > sounds a bit weird to me. I think the meaning is implied in the terms
      > themselves. If something is a university, you'd call it a university.
      > If it's something else you'd call it a college or institute...

      This where the international weirdness starts, and it's VERY
      complicated. Just check this web page:

      http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
      What_is_the_difference_between_a_college_and_a_university

      Although there's practically no difference between a university and a
      college in the US, I'd like to highlight this excerpt from the page
      linked above:

      > USA Universities Are More Research Focused Institutions Than USA
      > Colleges
      > The main difference between a college and a university is that the
      > university maintains research requirements for its instructors and
      > that the university is, in essence, a more research focused
      > institution.
      >
      > A college can offer many majors with which to direct your studies,
      > however, doctorate programs are more prone to be offered at
      > universities where they have the money to support such programs.
      >
      > This is probably related to the fact that Universities conduct
      > research, which in turn allows them a certain degree of
      > recognition, attracts a larger student body and affords them the
      > capacity to offer higher learning options than a college can offer.
      >
      Compare it to this description on a Czech-language site:
      http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vysok%c3%a1_%c5%a1kola

      > Vysoké školy v České republice se dělí na univerzitní a
      > neuniverzitní.
      >
      > Vysoká škola univerzitního typu může uskutečňovat všechny
      > typy studijních programů. Kromě činnosti pedagogické provozuje
      > i činnost vědeckou a výzkumnou, vývojovou nebo uměleckou.
      > Vysoká škola neuniverzitního typu uskutečňuje především
      > bakalářské studijních programy, ale může též uskutečňovat
      > magisterské studijních programy. Na rozdíl od univerzitní
      > vysoké školy se nečlení na fakulty.

      Looks like a match to me.

      Jamie




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Liz Spacilova
      Thanks, Jamie - that helped and I agree, they certainly do seem to match. Next time I come across this in a more normal translation (this one was a typical
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
        Thanks, Jamie - that helped and I agree, they certainly do seem to
        match. Next time I come across this in a more normal translation
        (this one was a typical ministry document filled with run-on
        sentences and citations to section paragraph letter blah-blah-blah
        that was going to get rubber-stamped), I'll use American English and
        do the college / university thing. But in this case I chickened out
        and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
        university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
        Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

        Liz


        > This where the international weirdness starts, and it's VERY
        > complicated. Just check this web page:
        >
        > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
        > What_is_the_difference_between_a_college_and_a_university


        > Compare it to this description on a Czech-language site:
        > http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vysok%c3%83%c2%a1_%c3%85%c2%a1kola
      • James Kirchner
        ... I think that was a good decision under the circumstances. The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that doesn t have much to do
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
          On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

          > But in this case I chickened out
          > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
          > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
          > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

          I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

          The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
          doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
          how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
          terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
          insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

          One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
          which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
          education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
          term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
          Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
          school".

          Jamie



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Valerie Talacko
          I don t think basic school is Czenglish. When you re describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
            I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

            The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

            Valerie

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: James Kirchner
            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



            On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

            > But in this case I chickened out
            > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
            > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
            > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

            I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

            The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
            doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
            how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
            terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
            insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

            One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
            which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
            education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
            term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
            Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
            school".

            Jamie

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Valerie Talacko
            p.s. I d use elementary school by choice, though. ... From: Valerie Talacko To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM Subject:
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
              p.s. I'd use 'elementary school' by choice, though.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Valerie Talacko
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu


              I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

              The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

              Valerie

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: James Kirchner
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

              On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

              > But in this case I chickened out
              > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
              > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
              > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

              I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

              The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
              doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
              how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
              terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
              insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

              One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
              which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
              education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
              term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
              Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
              school".

              Jamie

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Kirchner
              ... I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which would alternatively be
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                >

                I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
                equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
                would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
                to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

                If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
                years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
                Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
                sounding foreignism.

                > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                >

                I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
                because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
                instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

                The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
                school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
                in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

                Jamie
              • melvyn.geo
                FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha) suggests basic school for zakladni skola with the rider: timto terminem se anglicky
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                  FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha)
                  suggests 'basic school' for 'zakladni skola' with the rider: timto
                  terminem se anglicky oznacuje jak ceska ZS, tak zakladni skola v
                  nekterych zemich, napr. svedska Grundskola; presto je vhodne v
                  prekladu do AJ specifikovat, ze jde o skolu s primarnim a nizsim
                  sekundarnim stupnem podle ISCED 1997.

                  BTW I see there is no actual mention of any 'basic school' in ISCED 1997:
                  www.unesco.org/education/information/nfsunesco/doc/isced_1997.htm

                  BR

                  M.

                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                  different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                  that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                  understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                  >
                  > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                  think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                • Valerie Talacko
                  But primary school in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn t be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that s
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                    But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age range?

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: James Kirchner
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:43 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



                    On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                    > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                    > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                    > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                    > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                    >

                    I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
                    equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
                    would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
                    to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

                    If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
                    years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
                    Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
                    sounding foreignism.

                    > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                    > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                    >

                    I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
                    because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
                    instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

                    The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
                    school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
                    in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

                    Jamie





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James Kirchner
                    ... In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean the same thing. A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                      On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                      > But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age
                      > 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary
                      > school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age
                      > range?
                      >

                      In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean
                      the same thing.

                      A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
                      from kindergarten (age 5) to 5th or 6th grade (age 10 or 11),
                      depending on the configuration in the particular district.

                      A private or charter elementary / primary / grammar school usually
                      goes from kindergarten or 1st grade (age 5 or 6) to the 8th grade
                      (age 13). (A charter school is an independent school that is
                      chartered by the state and is not governed by the district.)

                      We don't make any verbal distinction between the two types of school
                      based on number of years. We only distinguish public from private,
                      and the rest is assumed. So a zakladni skola is still exactly
                      equivalent to one common type of American elementary school.

                      Jamie
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