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Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

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  • Liz Spacilova
    Regrettably I am dealing with some paper from a Czech ministry explaining why they did not grant a certain organisation accreditation as a vysoka skola
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
      Regrettably I am dealing with some paper from a Czech ministry
      explaining why they did not grant a certain organisation accreditation
      as a "vysoka skola univerzitniho typu", but it did grant them
      accreditation as a "vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu".

      Third level or tertiary college ... what are the first and second
      levels?

      > The expression "non-university"
      > sounds a bit weird to me.

      Me too

      Thanks

      Liz
    • coilinoc
      ... Why not simply say something like they didn t get a grant as a university but as an institute of higher education. ... Primary and secondary Best regards
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Liz Spacilova" <spacils@...> wrote:
        >
        > Regrettably I am dealing with some paper from a Czech ministry
        > explaining why they did not grant a certain organisation accreditation
        > as a "vysoka skola univerzitniho typu", but it did grant them
        > accreditation as a "vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu".

        Why not simply say something like "they didn't get a grant as a
        university but as an institute of higher education."

        > Third level or tertiary college ... what are the first and second
        > levels?

        Primary and secondary

        Best regards
        Coilin

        > > The expression "non-university"
        > > sounds a bit weird to me.
        >
        > Me too
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Liz
        >
      • Liz Spacilova
        ... I ll see how it works - thanks, Coilin, for the speediness. ... Little six year olds go to primary college? Liz
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
          > Why not simply say something like "they didn't get a grant as a
          > university but as an institute of higher education."

          I'll see how it works - thanks, Coilin, for the speediness.

          > > Third level or tertiary college ... what are the first and second
          > > levels?
          >
          > Primary and secondary

          Little six year olds go to primary college?

          Liz
        • coilinoc
          - ... In Ireland you usually go to primary school, secondary school/college, third-level college,university, etc. BTW, we also have PLC colleges, (which are
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
            -
            > > Primary and secondary
            >
            > Little six year olds go to primary college?

            In Ireland you usually go to primary school, secondary school/college,
            third-level college,university, etc. BTW, we also have PLC colleges,
            (which are post-leaving-cert colleges)
            Coilin
          • James Kirchner
            ... This where the international weirdness starts, and it s VERY complicated. Just check this web page: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
              On Aug 1, 2007, at 7:50 AM, coilinoc wrote:

              > I think we'd just call this a "third-level college" in Ireland (the
              > Brits would probably call it a "tertiary college") or simply
              > "institute of higher education". The expression "non-university"
              > sounds a bit weird to me. I think the meaning is implied in the terms
              > themselves. If something is a university, you'd call it a university.
              > If it's something else you'd call it a college or institute...

              This where the international weirdness starts, and it's VERY
              complicated. Just check this web page:

              http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
              What_is_the_difference_between_a_college_and_a_university

              Although there's practically no difference between a university and a
              college in the US, I'd like to highlight this excerpt from the page
              linked above:

              > USA Universities Are More Research Focused Institutions Than USA
              > Colleges
              > The main difference between a college and a university is that the
              > university maintains research requirements for its instructors and
              > that the university is, in essence, a more research focused
              > institution.
              >
              > A college can offer many majors with which to direct your studies,
              > however, doctorate programs are more prone to be offered at
              > universities where they have the money to support such programs.
              >
              > This is probably related to the fact that Universities conduct
              > research, which in turn allows them a certain degree of
              > recognition, attracts a larger student body and affords them the
              > capacity to offer higher learning options than a college can offer.
              >
              Compare it to this description on a Czech-language site:
              http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vysok%c3%a1_%c5%a1kola

              > Vysoké školy v České republice se dělí na univerzitní a
              > neuniverzitní.
              >
              > Vysoká škola univerzitního typu může uskutečňovat všechny
              > typy studijních programů. Kromě činnosti pedagogické provozuje
              > i činnost vědeckou a výzkumnou, vývojovou nebo uměleckou.
              > Vysoká škola neuniverzitního typu uskutečňuje především
              > bakalářské studijních programy, ale může též uskutečňovat
              > magisterské studijních programy. Na rozdíl od univerzitní
              > vysoké školy se nečlení na fakulty.

              Looks like a match to me.

              Jamie




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Liz Spacilova
              Thanks, Jamie - that helped and I agree, they certainly do seem to match. Next time I come across this in a more normal translation (this one was a typical
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 1, 2007
                Thanks, Jamie - that helped and I agree, they certainly do seem to
                match. Next time I come across this in a more normal translation
                (this one was a typical ministry document filled with run-on
                sentences and citations to section paragraph letter blah-blah-blah
                that was going to get rubber-stamped), I'll use American English and
                do the college / university thing. But in this case I chickened out
                and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
                university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
                Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

                Liz


                > This where the international weirdness starts, and it's VERY
                > complicated. Just check this web page:
                >
                > http://wiki.answers.com/Q/
                > What_is_the_difference_between_a_college_and_a_university


                > Compare it to this description on a Czech-language site:
                > http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vysok%c3%83%c2%a1_%c3%85%c2%a1kola
              • James Kirchner
                ... I think that was a good decision under the circumstances. The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that doesn t have much to do
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                  On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

                  > But in this case I chickened out
                  > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
                  > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
                  > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

                  I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

                  The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
                  doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
                  how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
                  terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
                  insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

                  One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
                  which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
                  education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
                  term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
                  Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
                  school".

                  Jamie



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Valerie Talacko
                  I don t think basic school is Czenglish. When you re describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                    I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

                    The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

                    Valerie

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: James Kirchner
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



                    On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

                    > But in this case I chickened out
                    > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
                    > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
                    > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

                    I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

                    The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
                    doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
                    how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
                    terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
                    insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

                    One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
                    which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
                    education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
                    term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
                    Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
                    school".

                    Jamie

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Valerie Talacko
                    p.s. I d use elementary school by choice, though. ... From: Valerie Talacko To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM Subject:
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                      p.s. I'd use 'elementary school' by choice, though.

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Valerie Talacko
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:23 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu


                      I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.

                      The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.

                      Valerie

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: James Kirchner
                      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu

                      On Aug 2, 2007, at 12:59 AM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

                      > But in this case I chickened out
                      > and wrote 'institute of higher learning that is not a
                      > university' // 'institute of higher learning that is a university'.
                      > Less than elloquent, I know, but clear. Bock bock.

                      I think that was a good decision under the circumstances.

                      The Czech ministry of education has its own dialect of Czenglish that
                      doesn't have much to do with real English. It's interesting to see
                      how the German and Czech ministries translate exactly equivalent
                      terms. The Germans translate them into English, but the Czechs
                      insist on Czenglish, which they appear to think is British English.

                      One example is how they translate "Grundschule" and "zakladni skola",
                      which part for part mean exactly the same thing. Last I did official
                      education documents, the Czech ministry insisted on the Czenglish
                      term "basic school" -- which doesn't exist in English -- whereas the
                      Germans used English and went with "primary school" or "elementary
                      school".

                      Jamie

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • James Kirchner
                      ... I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which would alternatively be
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                        On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                        > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                        > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                        > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                        > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                        >

                        I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
                        equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
                        would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
                        to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

                        If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
                        years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
                        Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
                        sounding foreignism.

                        > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                        > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                        >

                        I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
                        because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
                        instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

                        The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
                        school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
                        in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

                        Jamie
                      • melvyn.geo
                        FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha) suggests basic school for zakladni skola with the rider: timto terminem se anglicky
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                          FWIW I see that Cesko-anglicky pedagogicky slovnik (Jan Prucha)
                          suggests 'basic school' for 'zakladni skola' with the rider: timto
                          terminem se anglicky oznacuje jak ceska ZS, tak zakladni skola v
                          nekterych zemich, napr. svedska Grundskola; presto je vhodne v
                          prekladu do AJ specifikovat, ze jde o skolu s primarnim a nizsim
                          sekundarnim stupnem podle ISCED 1997.

                          BTW I see there is no actual mention of any 'basic school' in ISCED 1997:
                          www.unesco.org/education/information/nfsunesco/doc/isced_1997.htm

                          BR

                          M.

                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Valerie Talacko" <valerie@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                          different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                          that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                          understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                          >
                          > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                          think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                        • Valerie Talacko
                          But primary school in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn t be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that s
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                            But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age range?

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: James Kirchner
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 1:43 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: vysoka skola neuniverzitniho typu



                            On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                            > I don't think 'basic school' is Czenglish. When you're describing
                            > different education systems, you inevitably have to use some terms
                            > that sound foreign. The main thing is that they should be
                            > understandable, and I think basic school passes that test.
                            >

                            I absolutely disagree with you. A zakladni skola is exactly
                            equivalent to a private or charter elementary school in the US, which
                            would alternatively be called a primary school. It goes from the 1st
                            to the 8th grade, so it's a primary school.

                            If you were talking about those gymnazia that kids enter at 9 or 10
                            years old, then I'd agree with you, but there's nothing distinctively
                            Czech about a zakladni skola, and thus no reason to go with an odd-
                            sounding foreignism.

                            > The term 'elementary school' isn't used in the UK either, but I
                            > think it's fine to use it in a Czech context.
                            >

                            I don't think "elementary school" is fine to use in a Czech context,
                            because it's not international English. I use "primary school"
                            instead, because people in any country appear comfortable with it.

                            The one I dislike a lot is the Czechs' use of "secondary grammar
                            school", because those don't exist in the UK, as far as I know, and
                            in North America "grammar school" means zakladni skola.

                            Jamie





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • James Kirchner
                            ... In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean the same thing. A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 2, 2007
                              On Aug 2, 2007, at 7:59 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

                              > But 'primary school' in the UK means a school that goes up to age
                              > 11. I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Why not use elementary
                              > school, since at least that's used in the US to cover the same age
                              > range?
                              >

                              In the US, primary school, elementary school and grammar school mean
                              the same thing.

                              A public (i.e., municipal) elementary / primary / grammar school goes
                              from kindergarten (age 5) to 5th or 6th grade (age 10 or 11),
                              depending on the configuration in the particular district.

                              A private or charter elementary / primary / grammar school usually
                              goes from kindergarten or 1st grade (age 5 or 6) to the 8th grade
                              (age 13). (A charter school is an independent school that is
                              chartered by the state and is not governed by the district.)

                              We don't make any verbal distinction between the two types of school
                              based on number of years. We only distinguish public from private,
                              and the rest is assumed. So a zakladni skola is still exactly
                              equivalent to one common type of American elementary school.

                              Jamie
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