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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Help: Pedagogika volneho casu

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  • Valerie Talacko
    ok, they can be childrens nurses too, but the point I m making is that paediatric nurse is very common. This is so often the case in medicine - in one case
    Message 1 of 66 , May 27, 2007
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      ok, they can be childrens' nurses too, but the point I'm making is that 'paediatric nurse' is very common. This is so often the case in medicine - in one case English will use a Greek term, but the habitually-used Czech equivalent is some ancient Czech word, and in another Czech will use the foreign word, while the English term is some bog-standard English word.

      So I'm with Jamie on pedagogy.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Valerie Talacko
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 12:30 AM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Help: Pedagogika volneho casu

      Further to that, try googling 'playwork education.'


      SkillsActive works across the UK leading the development of playwork education and training for all those working with children and young people.

      Pedagogy, in my view, is simply one of those cases where the extent of English and Czech use of a Greek-derived word varies significantly. In many cases, of course, it goes the other way round - e.g. Czech detske sestry are always paediatric nurses in English, even when you're speaking relatively informally.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Valerie Talacko
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:54 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Help: Pedagogika volneho casu

      The job itself seems to be known now as 'playworker' in the UK:



      "Playworkers work in a range of settings, both statutory and voluntary, which aim to provide for children's play, such as out-of-school clubs, playschemes, adventure playgrounds. They may also work in a number of more specialised settings such as hospitals, refuges or family services, in which providing for play has been recognised as an important way of supporting children."

      You obtain a certificate or a diploma in playwork.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: James Kirchner
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2007 11:21 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Help: Pedagogika volneho casu

      On May 27, 2007, at 3:43 PM, Liz Spacilova wrote:

      > degree concentration "language pedagogy" over 13,000 returns
      > degree concentration "language education" 81,000 returns

      You're making my point by showing that "language education" is six
      times more common than "language pedagogy".

      > Native English aplenty in both search results... Hawaii, Mass, even
      > Texas ... pretty widespread in the US.

      But in all cases except "piano pedagogy", the "education" term is
      several times more common than the "pedagogy" term, and in many cases
      it's as much as a thousand times more common.

      > I am wondering what your argument is that this term is wrong. Based
      > on the results, it isn't an Easterneuropeanism, Czenglish, Deutsch-
      > isch, calque ...

      The word "pedagogy" exists and is sometimes used in English, but it's
      not nearly as commonly used as "education", and it's often not used
      in the contexts where Czechs insist on using it. They wind up with
      weird calques that way or inappropriate-sounding sentences, just as
      they do when they misuse the term "gastronomy".

      > can't be snooty, even UTexas offere "Hebrew
      > language pedagogy" and Texans are far from language snobs ....

      Do you think that the program in "Hebrew language pedagogy" (which IS
      weird-sounding, I'm sorry) at the University of Texas is mostly
      staffed by Texans? I quite doubt it. Besides, if we search, we find
      the collocation "Hebrew language education" is more than 20 times
      more common than "Hebrew language pedagogy", and most of the hits are
      for the same sort of programs.

      > so what is it?

      It's the tendency of Czechs to insist on the overuse or misuse of
      certain English words that look like their own words, or on
      mistranslation of various terms, so that they wind up with bizarre
      sentences or expressions. German "Grundschule" and Czech "zakladni
      skola" both mean literally and semantically the same thing, but
      Germans translate it correctly as "primary school" and Czech
      authorities -- out of all the real English alternatives they could
      have chosen -- insist on their own made-up term "basic school", and
      don't forget about all those "secondary grammar schools" Czech
      teenagers attend, which are cared for by "school servants". Czech
      misuse or overuse of terms like "pedagogy" and "gastronomy" are not
      that much different from those signs on the sidewalk pointing to
      where you can dine on "Czech kitchen". Or maybe a more apt
      comparison would be to Czechs writing "cosmetics Avon" or "cameras
      Nikon". You can understand it, it violates no rule in any grammar
      book, but it's wrong and sounds bizarre. However, if you try to
      correct it, they're liable to argue with you, and even if a person is
      told the correct way to write them every day for the next 20 years,
      he'll still write them wrong, because the wrong usage sounds better
      to him.

      If Czechs used the words "education" and "pedagogy" correctly, then
      you'd hear more about education than pedagogy, and you'd see more
      education faculties than pedagogical faculties. As it is, the
      proportions are flipped over, and so you hear inappropriately
      frequent use of the word "pedagogy". Even some of the posts in this
      thread indicated that some Czechs didn't know that "education" is
      commonly used -- or even can be used -- to mean the same thing as
      "pedagogika", and apparently thought "pedagogika = pedagogy,
      education = vzdelani", which is wrong.

      And I think many NES's resident in the CR start to lose their feel
      for correct or even normal English usage. I know I did.


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    • Bedrich Hadziu
      Thank you for the treatise, Jamie. Although it has not changed my opinion about the original issue, you certainly are a prolific GROUP contributor. Take it
      Message 66 of 66 , Jun 6, 2007
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        Thank you for the treatise, Jamie.

        Although it has not changed my opinion about the original issue, you certainly are a prolific GROUP contributor.

        Take it easy!


        James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

        On Jun 3, 2007, at 12:24 PM, Bedrich Hadziu wrote:

        >> "A problem with this term "the third age" in particular -- other than
        >> it sounding like it came from a science fiction novel or a
        >> Scientology tract -- is that the idea of there being "three ages" is
        >> out of kilter with the American view of age and maturation, which is
        >> VERY different from that in France or Eastern Europe."
        > Is it really "out of kilter" with the American view of age and
        > maturation?


        -- When I moved to the CR, I at first thought that babies I saw on
        the street were being accompanied by their older sisters, but the
        girls were their mothers.
        -- When I got home, after having gotten used to the CR for a few
        years, I thought I saw many babies in my neighborhood being pushed
        down the street by their grandmothers, but the women were really
        their mothers.

        -- A Czech woman I knew had her first baby at 34 and was constantly
        getting hassle about having had a child "late", and this prejudice
        sometimes even impaired her access to pediatric medical care. In the
        US, it's not "late" to have a baby at 34, and having one at 40 is not

        -- Czech people's children typically start moving out of the house
        when the parents are in their late 30s, but in the US it's when
        they're in their early to mid-50s.

        -- Job seekers in the CR start having trouble with age
        discrimination around age 40, but in the US that doesn't start until
        at least 10 years later.

        -- Czech women start being considered "too old" for marriage
        somewhere in their mid-20s (although the age is certainly creeping up
        now), whereas in the US it's the mid- to late 30s.

        -- Germans (I don't know about Czechs) typically think that in their
        mid-30s they're too old to change careers. Americans change careers

        -- Many Czechs as young as their mid-30s in adult classes complain
        that their brains are "old" and that they can't be expected to learn
        easily. Most Americans don't start talking about this until about
        their 60s.

        -- This is probably also changing, but many Americans have trouble
        discerning Czech people's ages until they've lived in the CR for a
        year or so. The typical explanation from one American to another
        (particularly about the women) has been, "They look 18 for years
        until at a certain age they suddenly look 50." (Obviously, this is
        an exaggeration, but it has some truth.)

        -- A Czech kid took a trip here and wanted me to take him to visit
        the family of his grandfather, whom he'd never met. (His grandfather
        had been a GI in Marianske Lazne at the end of WWII.) The kid told
        me that his grandfather wasn't alive, but that he wanted to visit is
        son. When we got to the house, we found it was not occupied by the
        son, but by the grandfather. Later I asked the kid, "Why did you
        think your grandfather was dead?" He replied, "Because in my
        country, if you're that age, you're dead."

        We view age QUITE differently in the States than elsewhere.


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