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Re: [Czechlist] TERM: zastupce reditelky ktera je na MD

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  • Valerie Talacko
    yes - I should really have said unusual or confusing. This does push the balance towards not using them, apart from the universally-recognised Dr. ... From:
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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      yes - I should really have said 'unusual or confusing.' This does push the balance towards not using them, apart from the universally-recognised Dr.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: James Kirchner
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 2:18 PM
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TERM: zastupce reditelky ktera je na MD



      On Oct 26, 2006, at 7:54 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

      > Since per procura has no meaning in English,
      >
      > And what about pp then?
      It still wouldn't be understood, at least internationally.
      > Petr Dobriás Ph.D. -- assistant CEO to Katerina Jiraskova.
      >
      > That's my problem, he's not an assistant, he's a big shot temporarily
      > replacing another big shot while she's away for three weeks with a
      > newborn
      > kid (at least I assume that's how long big shot business mothers
      > take off),
      > anyway, saying he's an assistant means something else and would sound
      > degrading, even to me who doesn't give a f...
      Then you'd go with "acting CEO" or "acting" whatever. Actually,
      "assistant CEO" is not degrading -- far from it -- but it would sound
      degrading to a Czech, which is a point I made before.
      > Re the Mgr's, Ing's and CSc's, that's my next assignment - trying to
      > persuade someone at the company to drop them, I'm sure the people
      > involved
      > will be upset, so I have to check with them first... also, some
      > have Czech
      > titles, which I tend to drop altogether, and some have English
      > titles, and
      > of course some have both and some more, I would drop them all
      > because that's
      > the way it would be on an US/UK website (right?), but I just know
      > they're
      > going to miss them.
      In the US, you only list the highest degree, and if it's below a
      doctorate you often don't list it at all. If you list every degree
      they have, as is the custom in the East, then they remind us of those
      Russian generals with 50 million medals hanging from their chests.
      (Notice also that even medals are reduced in the US military, to a
      small bar. The real medal stays in the drawer at home.)

      They also need to know that "Mgr." in English means "monseigneur" or
      "manager" and does not designate a master's degree. The title "Ing."
      doesn't exist in the English-speaking world (engineers without a
      doctorate have no special title), and most anglophones assume it's
      the abbreviation of the person's Christian name, maybe Ignac. I have
      frequently been asked what "name" that abbreviation stands for.

      Jamie





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Terminus Technicus
      Then you d go with acting CEO or acting whatever. Actually, assistant CEO is not degrading -- far from it -- but it would sound degrading to a Czech,
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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        Then you'd go with "acting CEO" or "acting" whatever. Actually,
        "assistant CEO" is not degrading -- far from it -- but it would sound
        degrading to a Czech, which is a point I made before.

        Yes, acting CEO is a great idea, thanks Valerie, I presume the guy's not
        assistant CEO and will not be when she gets back, that's why I didn't like
        it - I was talking about assistant TO CEO, not Asistant CEO being degrading,
        but the guy himself would probably complain about Assistant CEO too..


        In the US, you only list the highest degree, and if it's below a
        doctorate you often don't list it at all. If you list every degree
        they have, as is the custom in the East, then they remind us of those
        Russian generals with 50 million medals hanging from their chests.
        (Notice also that even medals are reduced in the US military, to a
        small bar. The real medal stays in the drawer at home.)

        Right, but with half of them mixing Czech and International degrees, I think
        I'm better off dropping all of them. Very few PhD's, lots of MBA's - you
        wouldn't quote that with your name, would you?

        It's a successful international company, not some academic pissing contest,
        after all.. I just have to persuade them that it's OK.

        Thanks again

        Matej
      • James Kirchner
        ... In the US, I believe that when secretaries sign for their bosses, they follow the signature with the initials of the boss and the secretary, for example,
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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          On Oct 26, 2006, at 8:23 AM, Valerie Talacko wrote:

          > I've only seen p.p. used at the end of letters signed by
          > secretaries on behalf of their bosses. I very much doubt whether it
          > could be used and understood in another context, as in 'he went
          > there p.p. his manager.' (plus from what Jamie says, it doesn't
          > sound as if it's US usage).
          In the US, I believe that when secretaries sign for their bosses,
          they follow the signature with the initials of the boss and the
          secretary, for example, "TP/ms".
          > From the description you give, this is definitely Acting. Acting is
          > used when the CEO or other office-holder is on maternity leave, or
          > ill, or when someone's resigned and they have yet to appoint a
          > permanent replacement (for example, Acting Head in a school).
          I agree.

          (In US companies by the time a woman gets to the CEO's office, she's
          usually done going on maternity leave.)
          > Re. titles - I think you're fine keeping the titles in this
          > particular situation, since presumably the function of this page is
          > to let people know to whom they should address various queries, and
          > the people in question would be unhappy if they received a letter
          > without the relevant titles. On the other hand, they have to weigh
          > that up against the fact of it looking unusual to UK/US readers
          > (although not maybe to others).
          And that the Czech title abbreviations often coincide with English
          abbreviations that have completely different meanings.

          Jamie
        • James Kirchner
          ... It has no entry in the Oxford American Dictionary, the Merriam- Webster Collegiate Dictionary, the Webster s New World College Dictionary or the American
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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            On Oct 26, 2006, at 8:21 AM, coilinoc wrote:
            > Acting MD sounds good in this context.
            > FWIW, p.p. or per pro in italics(per procurationem) is a perfectly
            > normal English equivalent of v.z. (I even used to see it regularly as
            > a kid when the school principal would send letters home about me,
            > which were signed by his secretary).
            > I'm also quite sure that any American unfamiliar with the term can
            > probably find it in any reputable dictionary.
            It has no entry in the Oxford American Dictionary, the Merriam-
            Webster Collegiate Dictionary, the Webster's New World College
            Dictionary or the American Heritage Dictionary, so basically any
            reputable dictionary a typical American has at hand does not provide
            an easy way to find it. It is not included in the definitions of
            p.p., and the Webster's New World has it as the origin of "per pro",
            which it defines as "by proxy". The trouble is that people here
            never see the term "per pro".

            So, basically, it's almost impossible for an American to find out
            quickly what that means.

            Jamie
          • James Kirchner
            ... People seldom list their MBA s. Many of the more intelligent people with PhD s don t even list those, if they re not psychologists or in some way involved
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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              On Oct 26, 2006, at 8:30 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

              > Right, but with half of them mixing Czech and International
              > degrees, I think
              > I'm better off dropping all of them. Very few PhD's, lots of MBA's
              > - you
              > wouldn't quote that with your name, would you?

              People seldom list their MBA's. Many of the more intelligent people
              with PhD's don't even list those, if they're not psychologists or in
              some way involved with the healthcare professions. Companies
              basically only care about what you've done.

              > It's a successful international company, not some academic pissing
              > contest,
              > after all.. I just have to persuade them that it's OK.

              Show them the management and board member lists of a few
              multinational companies. I've just looked at the officers and board
              members' names on the sites of Citigroup, General Motors and
              Microsoft, and NOBODY lists his degrees with his name, although you
              can bet most of them have MBA's, and that plenty have PhD's.

              Jamie




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • coilinoc
              I presume most Americans look things up online these days: Here s a couple of links defining per pro, which all cite Merriam Webster as the source for their
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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                I presume most Americans look things up online these days:

                Here's a couple of links defining per pro, which all cite Merriam
                Webster as the source for their definition:

                http://www.m-w.com/help/dictnotes/def.htm

                http://www.wordwizard.com/ch_forum/post.asp?
                method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=32786&TOPIC_ID=7221&FORUM_ID=7

                http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060618073355AALBJ7N

                I don't mean to be curmudgeon here, but I think that if someone
                doesn't know what a perfectly good phrase means, there's nothing to
                stop them looking it up.
                BR
                Coilin

                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > On Oct 26, 2006, at 8:21 AM, coilinoc wrote:
                > > Acting MD sounds good in this context.
                > > FWIW, p.p. or per pro in italics(per procurationem) is a perfectly
                > > normal English equivalent of v.z. (I even used to see it
                regularly as
                > > a kid when the school principal would send letters home about me,
                > > which were signed by his secretary).
                > > I'm also quite sure that any American unfamiliar with the term can
                > > probably find it in any reputable dictionary.
                > It has no entry in the Oxford American Dictionary, the Merriam-
                > Webster Collegiate Dictionary, the Webster's New World College
                > Dictionary or the American Heritage Dictionary, so basically any
                > reputable dictionary a typical American has at hand does not
                provide
                > an easy way to find it. It is not included in the definitions of
                > p.p., and the Webster's New World has it as the origin of "per
                pro",
                > which it defines as "by proxy". The trouble is that people here
                > never see the term "per pro".
                >
                > So, basically, it's almost impossible for an American to find out
                > quickly what that means.
                >
                > Jamie
                >
              • James Kirchner
                ... As did I. ... However, if it s in Latin (which this is) or is an odd, unusual abbreviation (which it also is), people will tend to blip over it and not
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 26, 2006
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                  On Oct 26, 2006, at 7:10 PM, coilinoc wrote:

                  > I presume most Americans look things up online these days:

                  As did I.

                  > I don't mean to be curmudgeon here, but I think that if someone
                  > doesn't know what a perfectly good phrase means, there's nothing to
                  > stop them looking it up.

                  However, if it's in Latin (which this is) or is an odd, unusual
                  abbreviation (which it also is), people will tend to blip over it and
                  not bother looking it up.

                  Jamie
                • kzgafas
                  I think PhD is a new Czech release for the former CSc. K. ... sound ... guy s not ... didn t like ... degrading, ... too.. ... those ... degrees, I think ...
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 27, 2006
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                    I think PhD is a new Czech release for the former CSc. K.


                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
                    <czechlist@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Then you'd go with "acting CEO" or "acting" whatever. Actually,
                    > "assistant CEO" is not degrading -- far from it -- but it would
                    sound
                    > degrading to a Czech, which is a point I made before.
                    >
                    > Yes, acting CEO is a great idea, thanks Valerie, I presume the
                    guy's not
                    > assistant CEO and will not be when she gets back, that's why I
                    didn't like
                    > it - I was talking about assistant TO CEO, not Asistant CEO being
                    degrading,
                    > but the guy himself would probably complain about Assistant CEO
                    too..
                    >
                    >
                    > In the US, you only list the highest degree, and if it's below a
                    > doctorate you often don't list it at all. If you list every degree
                    > they have, as is the custom in the East, then they remind us of
                    those
                    > Russian generals with 50 million medals hanging from their chests.
                    > (Notice also that even medals are reduced in the US military, to a
                    > small bar. The real medal stays in the drawer at home.)
                    >
                    > Right, but with half of them mixing Czech and International
                    degrees, I think
                    > I'm better off dropping all of them. Very few PhD's, lots of
                    MBA's - you
                    > wouldn't quote that with your name, would you?
                    >
                    > It's a successful international company, not some academic pissing
                    contest,
                    > after all.. I just have to persuade them that it's OK.
                    >
                    > Thanks again
                    >
                    > Matej
                    >
                  • kzgafas
                    I think PhD is a new Czech release for the former CSc. K. ... sound ... guy s not ... didn t like ... degrading, ... too.. ... those ... degrees, I think ...
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 27, 2006
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                      I think PhD is a new Czech release for the former CSc. K.


                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
                      <czechlist@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Then you'd go with "acting CEO" or "acting" whatever. Actually,
                      > "assistant CEO" is not degrading -- far from it -- but it would
                      sound
                      > degrading to a Czech, which is a point I made before.
                      >
                      > Yes, acting CEO is a great idea, thanks Valerie, I presume the
                      guy's not
                      > assistant CEO and will not be when she gets back, that's why I
                      didn't like
                      > it - I was talking about assistant TO CEO, not Asistant CEO being
                      degrading,
                      > but the guy himself would probably complain about Assistant CEO
                      too..
                      >
                      >
                      > In the US, you only list the highest degree, and if it's below a
                      > doctorate you often don't list it at all. If you list every degree
                      > they have, as is the custom in the East, then they remind us of
                      those
                      > Russian generals with 50 million medals hanging from their chests.
                      > (Notice also that even medals are reduced in the US military, to a
                      > small bar. The real medal stays in the drawer at home.)
                      >
                      > Right, but with half of them mixing Czech and International
                      degrees, I think
                      > I'm better off dropping all of them. Very few PhD's, lots of
                      MBA's - you
                      > wouldn't quote that with your name, would you?
                      >
                      > It's a successful international company, not some academic pissing
                      contest,
                      > after all.. I just have to persuade them that it's OK.
                      >
                      > Thanks again
                      >
                      > Matej
                      >
                    • Terminus Technicus
                      ... Actually, I just told them it would look funny to native English speakers and that they should decide whether they prefer to impress Czechs (on the Eng
                      Message 10 of 26 , Oct 27, 2006
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                        >
                        > Show them the management and board member lists of a few
                        > multinational companies. I've just looked at the officers and board
                        > members' names on the sites of Citigroup, General Motors and
                        > Microsoft, and NOBODY lists his degrees with his name, although you
                        > can bet most of them have MBA's, and that plenty have PhD's.
                        >
                        Actually, I just told them it would look funny to native English speakers
                        and that they should decide whether they prefer to impress Czechs (on the
                        Eng version of the website) with the collection of titles, or foreigners
                        with dropping them. They decided for the later and said they did the same in
                        their Annual Report. The revolution has begun!

                        (I'm still a pan inzenyr whenever I go to an urad or to a doctor, though,
                        and it STILL makes a difference, however much I hate it)

                        Matej
                      • Terminus Technicus
                        I wouldn t be surprised if this particular guy had a PhD from a Western university, they re pretty young and pretty good at this company.. But it doesn t
                        Message 11 of 26 , Oct 27, 2006
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                          I wouldn't be surprised if this particular guy had a PhD from a Western
                          university, they're pretty young and pretty good at this company..

                          But it doesn't matter, he's going to loose it in the Eng version and he's
                          probably not going to mind

                          M
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "kzgafas" <kzgafas@...>
                          To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:57 AM
                          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: TERM: zastupce reditelky ktera je na MD


                          > I think PhD is a new Czech release for the former CSc. K.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
                          > <czechlist@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Then you'd go with "acting CEO" or "acting" whatever. Actually,
                          > > "assistant CEO" is not degrading -- far from it -- but it would
                          > sound
                          > > degrading to a Czech, which is a point I made before.
                          > >
                          > > Yes, acting CEO is a great idea, thanks Valerie, I presume the
                          > guy's not
                          > > assistant CEO and will not be when she gets back, that's why I
                          > didn't like
                          > > it - I was talking about assistant TO CEO, not Asistant CEO being
                          > degrading,
                          > > but the guy himself would probably complain about Assistant CEO
                          > too..
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In the US, you only list the highest degree, and if it's below a
                          > > doctorate you often don't list it at all. If you list every degree
                          > > they have, as is the custom in the East, then they remind us of
                          > those
                          > > Russian generals with 50 million medals hanging from their chests.
                          > > (Notice also that even medals are reduced in the US military, to a
                          > > small bar. The real medal stays in the drawer at home.)
                          > >
                          > > Right, but with half of them mixing Czech and International
                          > degrees, I think
                          > > I'm better off dropping all of them. Very few PhD's, lots of
                          > MBA's - you
                          > > wouldn't quote that with your name, would you?
                          > >
                          > > It's a successful international company, not some academic pissing
                          > contest,
                          > > after all.. I just have to persuade them that it's OK.
                          > >
                          > > Thanks again
                          > >
                          > > Matej
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • kzgafas
                          I agree with dropping PhD in various company reports and marketing materials, but in general I rather tend to leave PhD in English texts. From my experience,
                          Message 12 of 26 , Oct 27, 2006
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                            I agree with dropping PhD in various company reports and marketing
                            materials, but in general I rather tend to leave PhD in English
                            texts. From my experience, there is quite considerable distinction
                            between BSc (BA) and PhD which I prefer to observe.

                            K.

                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
                            <czechlist@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Show them the management and board member lists of a few
                            > > multinational companies. I've just looked at the officers and
                            board
                            > > members' names on the sites of Citigroup, General Motors and
                            > > Microsoft, and NOBODY lists his degrees with his name, although
                            you
                            > > can bet most of them have MBA's, and that plenty have PhD's.
                            > >
                            > Actually, I just told them it would look funny to native English
                            speakers
                            > and that they should decide whether they prefer to impress Czechs
                            (on the
                            > Eng version of the website) with the collection of titles, or
                            foreigners
                            > with dropping them. They decided for the later and said they did
                            the same in
                            > their Annual Report. The revolution has begun!
                            >
                            > (I'm still a pan inzenyr whenever I go to an urad or to a doctor,
                            though,
                            > and it STILL makes a difference, however much I hate it)
                            >
                            > Matej
                            >
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