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RE: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

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  • Jirka Bolech
    Nazdar lidi, pred cislovkou se pouziva another , nikoliv other , ac se to muze jevit v rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem another = an + other pro pouzivani
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
      Nazdar lidi,

      pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
      rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
      pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

      Jirka Bolech
    • Patty Wan
      Dear Honza ... As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used with the . If talking about the population, we use the as in the Thai . Regards, Pat
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
        Dear Honza
        >And what about Thailand?
        As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used
        with 'the'. If talking about the population, we use
        'the' as in 'the Thai'.
        Regards,
        Pat

        --- Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:

        > Yes, Jamie,
        > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name
        > of the country
        > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom,
        > etc,. they must include
        > "the" as well.
        > Is this correct from your point of view? And what
        > about Thailand?
        > Honza
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
        > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
        > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another
        > eighteen countries...
        >
        >
        > >
        > > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
        > >
        > > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE
        > Netherlands.
        > >
        > > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so
        > I thought you
        > > didn't know.
        > >
        > > > What I wanted to know
        > > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
        > >
        > > I think it's because the United States are those
        > particular states
        > > that form the nation, and not whatever American
        > states you choose to
        > > use that name for at the moment.
        > >
        > > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular
        > lowlands, not just
        > > any lowlands,
        > >
        > > > but ONLY Ukraine.
        > >
        > > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one
        > Germany. "States"
        > > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably
        > need a definite
        > > article to narrow down the field.
        > >
        > > Jamie
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Czechlist resources:
        > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >


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      • magda.ferstlova
        Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit. Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi. Magda ... From:
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
          Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit.
          Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.
          Magda


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Jirka Bolech
          Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:07 AM
          To: Smartgroups; Yahoogroups
          Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

          Nazdar lidi,

          pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
          rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
          pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

          Jirka Bolech



          Czechlist resources:
          http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • James Kirchner
          ... I think it s more about specificity than about which word comes after it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb. ... There s no article with that
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
            On Feb 2, 2006, at 1:47 AM, Jan Culka wrote:

            > Yes, Jamie,
            > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
            > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must
            > include
            > "the" as well.

            I think it's more about specificity than about which word comes after
            it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb.

            > Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?

            There's no article with that name. I don't know why, but it seems to
            me that whenever you have a compound in which "-land" is singular,
            and it means "the land in which X is found" or "the land named after
            X" there is no article. This is true of countries and districts like
            Thailand, Swaziland, Iceland, Greenland, England ("Angle-land"),
            Ireland, etc., and unofficial designations like "Yankee land" (i.e.,
            the northern US). It even includes strange and imaginary places like
            Disneyland and Candyland. (Compare this to "the Czech lands", "the
            Netherlands", etc.)

            Notice that in some expressions we also don't use the article with
            the word "country". We can say people live in "wheat country", "corn
            country", "Bible country", "GM country", etc. Compare this to "the
            Wheat Belt", "the Corn Belt", "the Bible Belt", "the Rust Belt",
            etc. We also don't use an article when using "town" in this way:
            hockeytown, Boys Town, gossip town, etc.

            Maybe someone else knows the formal rule.

            Jamie
          • James Kirchner
            ... It s definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be 18 other countries or another 18 countries or the other 18 countries , but other 18
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
              On Feb 2, 2006, at 2:50 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

              > Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
              > European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
              > against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?

              It's definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be "18 other
              countries" or "another 18 countries" or "the other 18 countries", but
              "other 18 countries" alone, without an article (the other, an+other)
              or a number preceding it is wrong.

              > Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
              > konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
              > (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".

              You're right, but in English that "other" would not appear without an
              article or a number before it. Your translations of the word are
              good approximations, but remember that "the other" can also mean
              "ostatni"".

              the other 18 countries = ostatnich 18 zemi

              another 18 countries = jeste 18 dalsich zemi

              18 other countries = 18 jinych zemi

              other 18 countries = (neni mozne)

              Jamie
            • James Kirchner
              ... The rule doesn t seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners. Here is something
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:49 AM, magda.ferstlova wrote:

                > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to
                > najit.
                > Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.

                The rule doesn't seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native
                speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners.

                Here is something from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
                Online:

                an‧oth‧er S1 W1
                1 additional - one more person or thing of the same type:
                I'm going to have another cup of coffee.
                There'll be another bus along in a few minutes.
                Buy two CDs and get another completely free.

                another of
                Is this another of your schemes to make money?
                Not another word was spoken.
                Oh look, there's another one of those birds.
                This misunderstanding is yet another example of bad communication
                (=there have already been several).

                another two/10/100 etc (=an additional amount or number)
                We'll have to wait another three weeks for the results.
                There's still another £100 to pay.

                2 a different one - not the same thing, person etc, but a different one:
                They must have returned by another route.
                We finally moved to another apartment.
                I'm busy right now. Could you come back another time?
                Helen resigned from her last job and has yet to find another.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jirka Bolech
                Ahoj Magdo, ... Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se,
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                  Ahoj Magdo,

                  > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?

                  Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v
                  tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se, ze ve
                  stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to bude...

                  Jirka Bolech
                • James Kirchner
                  ... I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and this doesn t seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any specific way. I have
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                    On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

                    > Ahoj Magdo,
                    >
                    >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                    >
                    > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                    > nemam v
                    > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                    > se, ze ve
                    > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                    > bude...

                    I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                    this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                    specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                    grammar manuals, and it's not in them.

                    I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                    and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                    up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                    www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                    (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                    difference should be clear.

                    Jamie
                  • danabal@centrum.cz
                    Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan): Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                      Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                      "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number with a plural noun.
                      I've got another three days of holiday.
                      There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                      Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but not (in this sense) three other days."

                      A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                      "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                      a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                      b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                      Dana Balicka
                      ______________________________________________________________
                      > Od: jpklists@...
                      > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                      > CC:
                      > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                      > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                      >
                      >
                      > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                      >
                      > > Ahoj Magdo,
                      > >
                      > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                      > >
                      > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                      > > nemam v
                      > > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                      > > se, ze ve
                      > > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                      > > bude...
                      >
                      > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                      > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                      > specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                      > grammar manuals, and it's not in them.
                      >
                      > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                      > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                      > up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                      > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                      > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                      > difference should be clear.
                      >
                      > Jamie
                    • magda.ferstlova
                      Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc! Magda ... From:
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                        Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v
                        praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc!
                        Magda


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of danabal@...
                        Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:22 PM
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                        Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                        "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day,
                        but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number
                        with a plural noun.
                        I've got another three days of holiday.
                        There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                        Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but
                        not (in this sense) three other days."

                        A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                        "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                        a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                        b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto
                        druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another
                        ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                        Dana Balicka
                        ______________________________________________________________
                        > Od: jpklists@...
                        > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        > CC:
                        > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                        > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                        >
                        >
                        > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                        >
                        > > Ahoj Magdo,
                        > >
                        > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                        > >
                        > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                        > > nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul
                        > > bych se, ze ve stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda
                        > > Murphyho to bude...
                        >
                        > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                        > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                        > specific way. I have also checked various American and British grammar
                        > manuals, and it's not in them.
                        >
                        > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                        > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look up
                        > the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                        > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                        > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                        > difference should be clear.
                        >
                        > Jamie







                        Czechlist resources:
                        http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • melvyn.geo
                        ... to use it over there? Not these days IMHO. I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names: http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 7, 2006
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                          > A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
                          > Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal
                          to use it over there?

                          Not these days IMHO.

                          I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names:

                          http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html

                          The natural starting-point would then be to find out under which
                          names the governments of these nations want their countries to be
                          known. In a sample of five different yearbooks, encyclopedias and UN
                          publications two of these names never appear with the article, namely
                          Lebanon and Yemen. On the other hand, the Congo is the preferred form
                          in four out of the five sources.
                          <snip>
                          The Web search confirmed our other findings as regards Yemen and
                          Lebanon. Only 2% and 1%, respectively, of their occurrences included
                          the article.
                          <snip>
                          To sum up, if the warcry is 'Frequency Rules!', we can gladly
                          continue saying and writing the Congo and the Gambia, but leave out
                          the article in the other nation names. A justified pedagogical
                          simplification is to tell students that they never have to use the
                          definite article with any nation name in the singular. Personally, I
                          would travesty the old saying 'When in Rome, do as the Romans', and
                          try to live by the motto: 'When in the Gambia, say the Gambia, but
                          when in Ukraine, don't say the Ukraine!'

                          BR

                          M.
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