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Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...

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  • James Kirchner
    ... Yes, but you wrote the official name of USA , so I thought you didn t know. ... I think it s because the United States are those particular states that
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
      On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

      > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands.

      Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so I thought you
      didn't know.

      > What I wanted to know
      > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands

      I think it's because the United States are those particular states
      that form the nation, and not whatever American states you choose to
      use that name for at the moment.

      Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular lowlands, not just
      any lowlands,

      > but ONLY Ukraine.

      There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one Germany. "States"
      and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably need a definite
      article to narrow down the field.

      Jamie
    • Jan Culka
      Yes, Jamie, this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must include the
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
        Yes, Jamie,
        this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
        includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must include
        "the" as well.
        Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?
        Honza




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
        To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...


        >
        > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
        >
        > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands.
        >
        > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so I thought you
        > didn't know.
        >
        > > What I wanted to know
        > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
        >
        > I think it's because the United States are those particular states
        > that form the nation, and not whatever American states you choose to
        > use that name for at the moment.
        >
        > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular lowlands, not just
        > any lowlands,
        >
        > > but ONLY Ukraine.
        >
        > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one Germany. "States"
        > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably need a definite
        > article to narrow down the field.
        >
        > Jamie
        >
        >
        >
        > Czechlist resources:
        > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • magda.ferstlova
        And how about my original question - ANOTHER used with PLURAL. Any ideas? Magda ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
          And how about my original question - ANOTHER used with PLURAL. Any ideas?
          Magda


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of magda.ferstlova
          Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:24 PM
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Czechlist] GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...

          Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura prekladu
          do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
          EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich osmnacti zemi).
          ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se mozna
          otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je ANOTHER
          u mnozneho cisla.. Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
          dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se to ucili
          jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :( Dekuji za napady Magda




          Czechlist resources:
          http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • spektrum2002
          Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: All European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were against it je spatne a
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
            Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
            European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
            against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?
            Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
            konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
            (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".
            Petr Adamek
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > On Feb 1, 2006, at 4:23 PM, magda.ferstlova wrote:
            >
            > > Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura
            > > prekladu
            > > do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
            > > EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich
            > > osmnacti zemi).
            > > ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se
            > > mozna
            > > otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je
            > > ANOTHER
            > > u mnozneho cisla..
            >
            > You can't write "other eighteen countries" without an article, or it
            > will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either "the other
            > eighteen countries", which means something like "do tech dalsich 18
            > zemi" (the specific countries are already known), or "another
            > eighteen countries", which means something similar to "do nejakych
            > dalsich 18 zemi" (there are 18 more countries, but you don't know
            > which ones).
            >
            > > Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
            > > dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se
            > > to ucili
            > > jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(
            >
            > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
            > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
            > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
            >
            > Jamie
            >
          • Jirka Bolech
            Nazdar lidi, pred cislovkou se pouziva another , nikoliv other , ac se to muze jevit v rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem another = an + other pro pouzivani
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
              Nazdar lidi,

              pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
              rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
              pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

              Jirka Bolech
            • Patty Wan
              Dear Honza ... As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used with the . If talking about the population, we use the as in the Thai . Regards, Pat
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                Dear Honza
                >And what about Thailand?
                As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used
                with 'the'. If talking about the population, we use
                'the' as in 'the Thai'.
                Regards,
                Pat

                --- Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:

                > Yes, Jamie,
                > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name
                > of the country
                > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom,
                > etc,. they must include
                > "the" as well.
                > Is this correct from your point of view? And what
                > about Thailand?
                > Honza
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another
                > eighteen countries...
                >
                >
                > >
                > > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
                > >
                > > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE
                > Netherlands.
                > >
                > > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so
                > I thought you
                > > didn't know.
                > >
                > > > What I wanted to know
                > > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
                > >
                > > I think it's because the United States are those
                > particular states
                > > that form the nation, and not whatever American
                > states you choose to
                > > use that name for at the moment.
                > >
                > > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular
                > lowlands, not just
                > > any lowlands,
                > >
                > > > but ONLY Ukraine.
                > >
                > > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one
                > Germany. "States"
                > > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably
                > need a definite
                > > article to narrow down the field.
                > >
                > > Jamie
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Czechlist resources:
                > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >


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              • magda.ferstlova
                Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit. Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi. Magda ... From:
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                  Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit.
                  Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.
                  Magda


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Jirka Bolech
                  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:07 AM
                  To: Smartgroups; Yahoogroups
                  Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                  Nazdar lidi,

                  pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
                  rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
                  pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

                  Jirka Bolech



                  Czechlist resources:
                  http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • James Kirchner
                  ... I think it s more about specificity than about which word comes after it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb. ... There s no article with that
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                    On Feb 2, 2006, at 1:47 AM, Jan Culka wrote:

                    > Yes, Jamie,
                    > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
                    > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must
                    > include
                    > "the" as well.

                    I think it's more about specificity than about which word comes after
                    it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb.

                    > Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?

                    There's no article with that name. I don't know why, but it seems to
                    me that whenever you have a compound in which "-land" is singular,
                    and it means "the land in which X is found" or "the land named after
                    X" there is no article. This is true of countries and districts like
                    Thailand, Swaziland, Iceland, Greenland, England ("Angle-land"),
                    Ireland, etc., and unofficial designations like "Yankee land" (i.e.,
                    the northern US). It even includes strange and imaginary places like
                    Disneyland and Candyland. (Compare this to "the Czech lands", "the
                    Netherlands", etc.)

                    Notice that in some expressions we also don't use the article with
                    the word "country". We can say people live in "wheat country", "corn
                    country", "Bible country", "GM country", etc. Compare this to "the
                    Wheat Belt", "the Corn Belt", "the Bible Belt", "the Rust Belt",
                    etc. We also don't use an article when using "town" in this way:
                    hockeytown, Boys Town, gossip town, etc.

                    Maybe someone else knows the formal rule.

                    Jamie
                  • James Kirchner
                    ... It s definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be 18 other countries or another 18 countries or the other 18 countries , but other 18
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                      On Feb 2, 2006, at 2:50 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                      > Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
                      > European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
                      > against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?

                      It's definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be "18 other
                      countries" or "another 18 countries" or "the other 18 countries", but
                      "other 18 countries" alone, without an article (the other, an+other)
                      or a number preceding it is wrong.

                      > Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
                      > konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
                      > (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".

                      You're right, but in English that "other" would not appear without an
                      article or a number before it. Your translations of the word are
                      good approximations, but remember that "the other" can also mean
                      "ostatni"".

                      the other 18 countries = ostatnich 18 zemi

                      another 18 countries = jeste 18 dalsich zemi

                      18 other countries = 18 jinych zemi

                      other 18 countries = (neni mozne)

                      Jamie
                    • James Kirchner
                      ... The rule doesn t seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners. Here is something
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                        On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:49 AM, magda.ferstlova wrote:

                        > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to
                        > najit.
                        > Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.

                        The rule doesn't seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native
                        speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners.

                        Here is something from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
                        Online:

                        an‧oth‧er S1 W1
                        1 additional - one more person or thing of the same type:
                        I'm going to have another cup of coffee.
                        There'll be another bus along in a few minutes.
                        Buy two CDs and get another completely free.

                        another of
                        Is this another of your schemes to make money?
                        Not another word was spoken.
                        Oh look, there's another one of those birds.
                        This misunderstanding is yet another example of bad communication
                        (=there have already been several).

                        another two/10/100 etc (=an additional amount or number)
                        We'll have to wait another three weeks for the results.
                        There's still another £100 to pay.

                        2 a different one - not the same thing, person etc, but a different one:
                        They must have returned by another route.
                        We finally moved to another apartment.
                        I'm busy right now. Could you come back another time?
                        Helen resigned from her last job and has yet to find another.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jirka Bolech
                        Ahoj Magdo, ... Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                          Ahoj Magdo,

                          > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?

                          Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v
                          tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se, ze ve
                          stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to bude...

                          Jirka Bolech
                        • James Kirchner
                          ... I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and this doesn t seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any specific way. I have
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                            On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

                            > Ahoj Magdo,
                            >
                            >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                            >
                            > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                            > nemam v
                            > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                            > se, ze ve
                            > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                            > bude...

                            I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                            this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                            specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                            grammar manuals, and it's not in them.

                            I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                            and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                            up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                            www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                            (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                            difference should be clear.

                            Jamie
                          • danabal@centrum.cz
                            Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan): Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                              Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                              "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number with a plural noun.
                              I've got another three days of holiday.
                              There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                              Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but not (in this sense) three other days."

                              A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                              "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                              a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                              b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                              Dana Balicka
                              ______________________________________________________________
                              > Od: jpklists@...
                              > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                              > CC:
                              > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                              > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                              >
                              >
                              > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                              >
                              > > Ahoj Magdo,
                              > >
                              > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                              > >
                              > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                              > > nemam v
                              > > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                              > > se, ze ve
                              > > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                              > > bude...
                              >
                              > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                              > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                              > specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                              > grammar manuals, and it's not in them.
                              >
                              > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                              > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                              > up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                              > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                              > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                              > difference should be clear.
                              >
                              > Jamie
                            • magda.ferstlova
                              Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc! Magda ... From:
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                                Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v
                                praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc!
                                Magda


                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                Of danabal@...
                                Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:22 PM
                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                                Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                                "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day,
                                but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number
                                with a plural noun.
                                I've got another three days of holiday.
                                There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                                Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but
                                not (in this sense) three other days."

                                A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                                "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                                a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                                b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto
                                druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another
                                ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                                Dana Balicka
                                ______________________________________________________________
                                > Od: jpklists@...
                                > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                > CC:
                                > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                                > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                                >
                                >
                                > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                                >
                                > > Ahoj Magdo,
                                > >
                                > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                > >
                                > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                > > nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul
                                > > bych se, ze ve stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda
                                > > Murphyho to bude...
                                >
                                > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                > specific way. I have also checked various American and British grammar
                                > manuals, and it's not in them.
                                >
                                > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look up
                                > the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                > difference should be clear.
                                >
                                > Jamie







                                Czechlist resources:
                                http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • melvyn.geo
                                ... to use it over there? Not these days IMHO. I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names: http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 7, 2006
                                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                                  > A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
                                  > Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal
                                  to use it over there?

                                  Not these days IMHO.

                                  I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names:

                                  http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html

                                  The natural starting-point would then be to find out under which
                                  names the governments of these nations want their countries to be
                                  known. In a sample of five different yearbooks, encyclopedias and UN
                                  publications two of these names never appear with the article, namely
                                  Lebanon and Yemen. On the other hand, the Congo is the preferred form
                                  in four out of the five sources.
                                  <snip>
                                  The Web search confirmed our other findings as regards Yemen and
                                  Lebanon. Only 2% and 1%, respectively, of their occurrences included
                                  the article.
                                  <snip>
                                  To sum up, if the warcry is 'Frequency Rules!', we can gladly
                                  continue saying and writing the Congo and the Gambia, but leave out
                                  the article in the other nation names. A justified pedagogical
                                  simplification is to tell students that they never have to use the
                                  definite article with any nation name in the singular. Personally, I
                                  would travesty the old saying 'When in Rome, do as the Romans', and
                                  try to live by the motto: 'When in the Gambia, say the Gambia, but
                                  when in Ukraine, don't say the Ukraine!'

                                  BR

                                  M.
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