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Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...

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  • melvyn.geo
    ... Yup. See the CIA Factbook: Ukraine Country name: conventional long form: none conventional short form: Ukraine
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "coilinoc" <coilinoc@...> wrote:

      > Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
      > just "Ukraine."

      Yup. See the CIA Factbook:

      Ukraine
      Country name:
      conventional long form: none
      conventional short form: Ukraine

      http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html


      > I know for a fact that many media outlets (such as
      > the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if
      it's in any submissions to them.
      >

      When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
      tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
      one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
      region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).
      In any case, the style guides of the Economist, the Guardian and the
      Times are against the 'the' here:

      http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184820,00.html

      http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2941-581,00.html

      www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

      www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1991/499102.shtml


      HTH

      M.
    • grabanrad
      I d go for Jamie s the other , especially with the specific number (18) R.
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
        I'd go for Jamie's "the other", especially with the specific number (18)
        R.
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > On Feb 1, 2006, at 4:23 PM, magda.ferstlova wrote:
        >
        > > Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura
        > > prekladu
        > > do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
        > > EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich
        > > osmnacti zemi).
        > > ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se
        > > mozna
        > > otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je
        > > ANOTHER
        > > u mnozneho cisla..
        >
        > You can't write "other eighteen countries" without an article, or it
        > will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either "the other
        > eighteen countries", which means something like "do tech dalsich 18
        > zemi" (the specific countries are already known), or "another
        > eighteen countries", which means something similar to "do nejakych
        > dalsich 18 zemi" (there are 18 more countries, but you don't know
        > which ones).
        >
        > > Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
        > > dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se
        > > to ucili
        > > jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(
        >
        > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
        > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
        > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
        >
        > Jamie
        >
      • grabanrad
        Try this link for ISO countries names:http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
          Try this link for ISO countries
          names:http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html
          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "coilinoc" <coilinoc@> wrote:
          >
          > > Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
          > > just "Ukraine."
          >
          > Yup. See the CIA Factbook:
          >
          > Ukraine
          > Country name:
          > conventional long form: none
          > conventional short form: Ukraine
          >
          > http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html
          >
          >
          > > I know for a fact that many media outlets (such as
          > > the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if
          > it's in any submissions to them.
          > >
          >
          > When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
          > tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
          > one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
          > region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).
          > In any case, the style guides of the Economist, the Guardian and the
          > Times are against the 'the' here:
          >
          > http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717
          >
          > http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184820,00.html
          >
          > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2941-581,00.html
          >
          > www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/
          >
          > www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1991/499102.shtml
          >
          >
          > HTH
          >
          > M.
          >
        • James Kirchner
          ... A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to the Yemen . That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal to use it over there?
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
            On Feb 1, 2006, at 6:12 PM, melvyn.geo wrote:

            > When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
            > tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
            > one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
            > region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).

            A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
            Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal to
            use it over there?

            Jamie
          • Helga Listen
            Qustion: was the writer a native speaker of English? If no, and if he was a German NS this makes sense. We call it Der Jemen , but don´t ask me why. Helga
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
              Qustion: was the writer a native speaker of English? If no, and if he was a
              German NS this makes sense. We call it "Der Jemen", but don�t ask me why.

              Helga

              (still lost in "detoxikace")



              _____

              From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of James Kirchner
              Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:55 AM
              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...




              On Feb 1, 2006, at 6:12 PM, melvyn.geo wrote:

              > When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
              > tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
              > one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
              > region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).

              A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
              Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal to
              use it over there?

              Jamie




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            • James Kirchner
              ... It is correctly called the USA , not just USA . We also say the US . The official name is The United States of America . However, a meat wholesaler
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                On Feb 1, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                > Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA is �The
                > United
                > states of America�?

                It is correctly called "the USA", not just "USA". We also say "the
                US". The official name is "The United States of America".

                However, a meat wholesaler in my city was called "United Steaks of
                America" without "the", I assume because when you went in there from
                day to day or week to week, there were always new steaks (I hope),
                and the name didn't refer to any particular set of steaks.

                Students persistently leaving "the" out of "the USA", and saying
                "USA" when it's more normal to say "the US", are two of my never-
                ending ESL nightmares. They rank up there with students saying and
                writing "Italia" and never learning to say "Italy" no matter how many
                times they are told. (Or Czech kids saying "friz�r" in English no
                matter how many times they're told the word doesn't exist in the
                language.)

                > As far as I know the article is used for this country.
                > Same question for Netherlands (and maybe some others too).

                The Netherlands.

                Jamie



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Kirchner
                ... No, the writer was English. Jamie
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                  On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                  > Qustion: was the writer a native speaker of English? If no, and if
                  > he was a
                  > German NS this makes sense. We call it "Der Jemen", but don´t ask
                  > me why.

                  No, the writer was English.

                  Jamie
                • Helga Listen
                  Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands. What I wanted to know is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands but ONLY Ukraine. Helga ... From:
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                    Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands. What I wanted to know
                    is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands but ONLY Ukraine.
                    Helga

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of James Kirchner
                    Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:05 AM
                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...


                    On Feb 1, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                    > Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA is ?The
                    > United
                    > states of America??

                    It is correctly called "the USA", not just "USA". We also say "the
                    US". The official name is "The United States of America".

                    However, a meat wholesaler in my city was called "United Steaks of
                    America" without "the", I assume because when you went in there from
                    day to day or week to week, there were always new steaks (I hope),
                    and the name didn't refer to any particular set of steaks.

                    Students persistently leaving "the" out of "the USA", and saying
                    "USA" when it's more normal to say "the US", are two of my never-
                    ending ESL nightmares. They rank up there with students saying and
                    writing "Italia" and never learning to say "Italy" no matter how many
                    times they are told. (Or Czech kids saying "frizér" in English no
                    matter how many times they're told the word doesn't exist in the
                    language.)

                    > As far as I know the article is used for this country.
                    > Same question for Netherlands (and maybe some others too).

                    The Netherlands.

                    Jamie



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    Czechlist resources:
                    http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                    Yahoo! Groups Links








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                  • James Kirchner
                    ... Yes, but you wrote the official name of USA , so I thought you didn t know. ... I think it s because the United States are those particular states that
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                      On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                      > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands.

                      Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so I thought you
                      didn't know.

                      > What I wanted to know
                      > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands

                      I think it's because the United States are those particular states
                      that form the nation, and not whatever American states you choose to
                      use that name for at the moment.

                      Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular lowlands, not just
                      any lowlands,

                      > but ONLY Ukraine.

                      There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one Germany. "States"
                      and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably need a definite
                      article to narrow down the field.

                      Jamie
                    • Jan Culka
                      Yes, Jamie, this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must include the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                        Yes, Jamie,
                        this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
                        includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must include
                        "the" as well.
                        Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?
                        Honza




                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                        To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...


                        >
                        > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
                        >
                        > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands.
                        >
                        > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so I thought you
                        > didn't know.
                        >
                        > > What I wanted to know
                        > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
                        >
                        > I think it's because the United States are those particular states
                        > that form the nation, and not whatever American states you choose to
                        > use that name for at the moment.
                        >
                        > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular lowlands, not just
                        > any lowlands,
                        >
                        > > but ONLY Ukraine.
                        >
                        > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one Germany. "States"
                        > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably need a definite
                        > article to narrow down the field.
                        >
                        > Jamie
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Czechlist resources:
                        > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • magda.ferstlova
                        And how about my original question - ANOTHER used with PLURAL. Any ideas? Magda ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                          And how about my original question - ANOTHER used with PLURAL. Any ideas?
                          Magda


                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of magda.ferstlova
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:24 PM
                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Czechlist] GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...

                          Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura prekladu
                          do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
                          EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich osmnacti zemi).
                          ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se mozna
                          otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je ANOTHER
                          u mnozneho cisla.. Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
                          dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se to ucili
                          jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :( Dekuji za napady Magda




                          Czechlist resources:
                          http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • spektrum2002
                          Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: All European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were against it je spatne a
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
                            Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
                            European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
                            against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?
                            Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
                            konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
                            (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".
                            Petr Adamek
                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > On Feb 1, 2006, at 4:23 PM, magda.ferstlova wrote:
                            >
                            > > Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura
                            > > prekladu
                            > > do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
                            > > EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich
                            > > osmnacti zemi).
                            > > ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se
                            > > mozna
                            > > otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je
                            > > ANOTHER
                            > > u mnozneho cisla..
                            >
                            > You can't write "other eighteen countries" without an article, or it
                            > will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either "the other
                            > eighteen countries", which means something like "do tech dalsich 18
                            > zemi" (the specific countries are already known), or "another
                            > eighteen countries", which means something similar to "do nejakych
                            > dalsich 18 zemi" (there are 18 more countries, but you don't know
                            > which ones).
                            >
                            > > Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
                            > > dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se
                            > > to ucili
                            > > jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(
                            >
                            > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
                            > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
                            > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
                            >
                            > Jamie
                            >
                          • Jirka Bolech
                            Nazdar lidi, pred cislovkou se pouziva another , nikoliv other , ac se to muze jevit v rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem another = an + other pro pouzivani
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                              Nazdar lidi,

                              pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
                              rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
                              pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

                              Jirka Bolech
                            • Patty Wan
                              Dear Honza ... As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used with the . If talking about the population, we use the as in the Thai . Regards, Pat
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                                Dear Honza
                                >And what about Thailand?
                                As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used
                                with 'the'. If talking about the population, we use
                                'the' as in 'the Thai'.
                                Regards,
                                Pat

                                --- Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:

                                > Yes, Jamie,
                                > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name
                                > of the country
                                > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom,
                                > etc,. they must include
                                > "the" as well.
                                > Is this correct from your point of view? And what
                                > about Thailand?
                                > Honza
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another
                                > eighteen countries...
                                >
                                >
                                > >
                                > > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE
                                > Netherlands.
                                > >
                                > > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so
                                > I thought you
                                > > didn't know.
                                > >
                                > > > What I wanted to know
                                > > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
                                > >
                                > > I think it's because the United States are those
                                > particular states
                                > > that form the nation, and not whatever American
                                > states you choose to
                                > > use that name for at the moment.
                                > >
                                > > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular
                                > lowlands, not just
                                > > any lowlands,
                                > >
                                > > > but ONLY Ukraine.
                                > >
                                > > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one
                                > Germany. "States"
                                > > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably
                                > need a definite
                                > > article to narrow down the field.
                                > >
                                > > Jamie
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Czechlist resources:
                                > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >


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                              • magda.ferstlova
                                Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit. Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi. Magda ... From:
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                                  Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit.
                                  Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.
                                  Magda


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of Jirka Bolech
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:07 AM
                                  To: Smartgroups; Yahoogroups
                                  Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                                  Nazdar lidi,

                                  pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
                                  rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
                                  pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

                                  Jirka Bolech



                                  Czechlist resources:
                                  http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • James Kirchner
                                  ... I think it s more about specificity than about which word comes after it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb. ... There s no article with that
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                                    On Feb 2, 2006, at 1:47 AM, Jan Culka wrote:

                                    > Yes, Jamie,
                                    > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
                                    > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must
                                    > include
                                    > "the" as well.

                                    I think it's more about specificity than about which word comes after
                                    it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb.

                                    > Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?

                                    There's no article with that name. I don't know why, but it seems to
                                    me that whenever you have a compound in which "-land" is singular,
                                    and it means "the land in which X is found" or "the land named after
                                    X" there is no article. This is true of countries and districts like
                                    Thailand, Swaziland, Iceland, Greenland, England ("Angle-land"),
                                    Ireland, etc., and unofficial designations like "Yankee land" (i.e.,
                                    the northern US). It even includes strange and imaginary places like
                                    Disneyland and Candyland. (Compare this to "the Czech lands", "the
                                    Netherlands", etc.)

                                    Notice that in some expressions we also don't use the article with
                                    the word "country". We can say people live in "wheat country", "corn
                                    country", "Bible country", "GM country", etc. Compare this to "the
                                    Wheat Belt", "the Corn Belt", "the Bible Belt", "the Rust Belt",
                                    etc. We also don't use an article when using "town" in this way:
                                    hockeytown, Boys Town, gossip town, etc.

                                    Maybe someone else knows the formal rule.

                                    Jamie
                                  • James Kirchner
                                    ... It s definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be 18 other countries or another 18 countries or the other 18 countries , but other 18
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                                      On Feb 2, 2006, at 2:50 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                                      > Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
                                      > European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
                                      > against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?

                                      It's definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be "18 other
                                      countries" or "another 18 countries" or "the other 18 countries", but
                                      "other 18 countries" alone, without an article (the other, an+other)
                                      or a number preceding it is wrong.

                                      > Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
                                      > konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
                                      > (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".

                                      You're right, but in English that "other" would not appear without an
                                      article or a number before it. Your translations of the word are
                                      good approximations, but remember that "the other" can also mean
                                      "ostatni"".

                                      the other 18 countries = ostatnich 18 zemi

                                      another 18 countries = jeste 18 dalsich zemi

                                      18 other countries = 18 jinych zemi

                                      other 18 countries = (neni mozne)

                                      Jamie
                                    • James Kirchner
                                      ... The rule doesn t seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners. Here is something
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                                        On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:49 AM, magda.ferstlova wrote:

                                        > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to
                                        > najit.
                                        > Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.

                                        The rule doesn't seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native
                                        speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners.

                                        Here is something from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
                                        Online:

                                        an‧oth‧er S1 W1
                                        1 additional - one more person or thing of the same type:
                                        I'm going to have another cup of coffee.
                                        There'll be another bus along in a few minutes.
                                        Buy two CDs and get another completely free.

                                        another of
                                        Is this another of your schemes to make money?
                                        Not another word was spoken.
                                        Oh look, there's another one of those birds.
                                        This misunderstanding is yet another example of bad communication
                                        (=there have already been several).

                                        another two/10/100 etc (=an additional amount or number)
                                        We'll have to wait another three weeks for the results.
                                        There's still another £100 to pay.

                                        2 a different one - not the same thing, person etc, but a different one:
                                        They must have returned by another route.
                                        We finally moved to another apartment.
                                        I'm busy right now. Could you come back another time?
                                        Helen resigned from her last job and has yet to find another.

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Jirka Bolech
                                        Ahoj Magdo, ... Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                                          Ahoj Magdo,

                                          > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?

                                          Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v
                                          tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se, ze ve
                                          stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to bude...

                                          Jirka Bolech
                                        • James Kirchner
                                          ... I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and this doesn t seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any specific way. I have
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                                            On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

                                            > Ahoj Magdo,
                                            >
                                            >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                            >
                                            > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                            > nemam v
                                            > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                                            > se, ze ve
                                            > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                                            > bude...

                                            I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                            this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                            specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                                            grammar manuals, and it's not in them.

                                            I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                            and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                                            up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                            www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                            (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                            difference should be clear.

                                            Jamie
                                          • danabal@centrum.cz
                                            Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan): Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                                              Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                                              "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number with a plural noun.
                                              I've got another three days of holiday.
                                              There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                                              Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but not (in this sense) three other days."

                                              A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                                              "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                                              a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                                              b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                                              Dana Balicka
                                              ______________________________________________________________
                                              > Od: jpklists@...
                                              > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                              > CC:
                                              > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                                              > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > Ahoj Magdo,
                                              > >
                                              > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                              > >
                                              > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                              > > nemam v
                                              > > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                                              > > se, ze ve
                                              > > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                                              > > bude...
                                              >
                                              > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                              > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                              > specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                                              > grammar manuals, and it's not in them.
                                              >
                                              > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                              > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                                              > up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                              > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                              > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                              > difference should be clear.
                                              >
                                              > Jamie
                                            • magda.ferstlova
                                              Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc! Magda ... From:
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                                                Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v
                                                praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc!
                                                Magda


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                Of danabal@...
                                                Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:22 PM
                                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                                                Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                                                "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day,
                                                but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number
                                                with a plural noun.
                                                I've got another three days of holiday.
                                                There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                                                Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but
                                                not (in this sense) three other days."

                                                A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                                                "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                                                a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                                                b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto
                                                druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another
                                                ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                                                Dana Balicka
                                                ______________________________________________________________
                                                > Od: jpklists@...
                                                > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                > CC:
                                                > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                                                > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Ahoj Magdo,
                                                > >
                                                > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                                > >
                                                > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                                > > nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul
                                                > > bych se, ze ve stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda
                                                > > Murphyho to bude...
                                                >
                                                > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                                > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                                > specific way. I have also checked various American and British grammar
                                                > manuals, and it's not in them.
                                                >
                                                > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                                > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look up
                                                > the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                                > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                                > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                                > difference should be clear.
                                                >
                                                > Jamie







                                                Czechlist resources:
                                                http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


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                                              • melvyn.geo
                                                ... to use it over there? Not these days IMHO. I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names: http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 7, 2006
                                                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                                                  > A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
                                                  > Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal
                                                  to use it over there?

                                                  Not these days IMHO.

                                                  I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names:

                                                  http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html

                                                  The natural starting-point would then be to find out under which
                                                  names the governments of these nations want their countries to be
                                                  known. In a sample of five different yearbooks, encyclopedias and UN
                                                  publications two of these names never appear with the article, namely
                                                  Lebanon and Yemen. On the other hand, the Congo is the preferred form
                                                  in four out of the five sources.
                                                  <snip>
                                                  The Web search confirmed our other findings as regards Yemen and
                                                  Lebanon. Only 2% and 1%, respectively, of their occurrences included
                                                  the article.
                                                  <snip>
                                                  To sum up, if the warcry is 'Frequency Rules!', we can gladly
                                                  continue saying and writing the Congo and the Gambia, but leave out
                                                  the article in the other nation names. A justified pedagogical
                                                  simplification is to tell students that they never have to use the
                                                  definite article with any nation name in the singular. Personally, I
                                                  would travesty the old saying 'When in Rome, do as the Romans', and
                                                  try to live by the motto: 'When in the Gambia, say the Gambia, but
                                                  when in Ukraine, don't say the Ukraine!'

                                                  BR

                                                  M.
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