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GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...

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  • magda.ferstlova
    Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura prekladu do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER EIGHTEEN
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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      Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura prekladu
      do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
      EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich osmnacti zemi).
      ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se mozna
      otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je ANOTHER
      u mnozneho cisla.. Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
      dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se to ucili
      jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(
      Dekuji za napady
      Magda
    • James Kirchner
      ... You can t write other eighteen countries without an article, or it will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either the other eighteen
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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        On Feb 1, 2006, at 4:23 PM, magda.ferstlova wrote:

        > Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura
        > prekladu
        > do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
        > EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich
        > osmnacti zemi).
        > ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se
        > mozna
        > otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je
        > ANOTHER
        > u mnozneho cisla..

        You can't write "other eighteen countries" without an article, or it
        will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either "the other
        eighteen countries", which means something like "do tech dalsich 18
        zemi" (the specific countries are already known), or "another
        eighteen countries", which means something similar to "do nejakych
        dalsich 18 zemi" (there are 18 more countries, but you don't know
        which ones).

        > Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
        > dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se
        > to ucili
        > jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(

        It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
        dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
        common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.

        Jamie
      • coilinoc
        ... Technically, it s not any more. It was ok to use the article when it was a region of the USSR, which is why many native English speakers of a certain age
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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          >
          > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
          > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
          > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
          >

          Technically, it's not any more. It was ok to use the article when it
          was a region of the USSR, which is why many native English speakers of
          a certain age (including myself) feel it more natural to say "the
          Ukraine."

          Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
          just "Ukraine." I know for a fact that many media outlets (such as
          the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if it's
          in any submissions to them.

          HTH
          Coilin
        • Helga Listen
          Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA is „The United states of America“? As far as I know the article is used for this country. Same
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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            Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA is �The United
            states of America�? As far as I know the article is used for this country.
            Same question for Netherlands (and maybe some others too).

            Also, how come, the official name of this country is Ukraine (spelling and
            use of article). I do not speak their language, but I do have a feeling,
            that their official writing is Cyrillic, which means the Latin wording
            Ukraine is a transcript only, not an official name. Further one would need
            to know whether or not their language uses articles or not. Only based on
            this knowledge you can actually decide whether or not an article is
            appropriate.

            It is weird, but I do have a problem with Ukraine without �the�. In English
            I do not have a problem with the �missing� article in Switzerland, Slovakia,
            Turkey and some other countries (even though they carry an article in
            German), but for the Ukraine my (non native speaker) feeling tells me that
            there is �something missing�.

            Can any of the English NSs tell us a little more about the usage of articles
            in connection with country names?

            Helga

            _____

            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of coilinoc
            >
            > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
            > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
            > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
            >

            Technically, it's not any more. It was ok to use the article when it
            was a region of the USSR, which is why many native English speakers of
            a certain age (including myself) feel it more natural to say "the
            Ukraine."

            Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
            just "Ukraine." I know for a fact that many media outlets (such as
            the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if it's
            in any submissions to them.



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          • coilinoc
            All I was saying is that is now the country s official name in English and is now also the standard usage recommended for newspapers, legal documents, the
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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              All I was saying is that is now the country's official name in
              English and is now also the standard usage recommended for
              newspapers, legal documents, the international football team, etc.

              As a result don't be surprised when editors, correctors etc. remove
              the article.

              Check out the Guardian's style guide for instance:

              http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184820,00.html

              HTH
              Coilin

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Helga Listen" <listen@...> wrote:
              >
              > Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA
              is „The United
              > states of America"? As far as I know the article is used for this
              country.
              > Same question for Netherlands (and maybe some others too).
              >
              > Also, how come, the official name of this country is Ukraine
              (spelling and
              > use of article). I do not speak their language, but I do have a
              feeling,
              > that their official writing is Cyrillic, which means the Latin
              wording
              > Ukraine is a transcript only, not an official name. Further one
              would need
              > to know whether or not their language uses articles or not. Only
              based on
              > this knowledge you can actually decide whether or not an article is
              > appropriate.
              >
              > It is weird, but I do have a problem with Ukraine without „the".
              In English
              > I do not have a problem with the „missing" article in Switzerland,
              Slovakia,
              > Turkey and some other countries (even though they carry an article
              in
              > German), but for the Ukraine my (non native speaker) feeling tells
              me that
              > there is „something missing".
              >
              > Can any of the English NSs tell us a little more about the usage
              of articles
              > in connection with country names?
              >
              > Helga
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]
              On Behalf
              > Of coilinoc
              > >
              > > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford
              American
              > > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the
              most
              > > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
              > >
              >
              > Technically, it's not any more. It was ok to use the article when
              it
              > was a region of the USSR, which is why many native English
              speakers of
              > a certain age (including myself) feel it more natural to say "the
              > Ukraine."
              >
              > Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
              > just "Ukraine." I know for a fact that many media outlets (such
              as
              > the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if
              it's
              > in any submissions to them.
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              >
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              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • melvyn.geo
              ... Yup. See the CIA Factbook: Ukraine Country name: conventional long form: none conventional short form: Ukraine
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "coilinoc" <coilinoc@...> wrote:

                > Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
                > just "Ukraine."

                Yup. See the CIA Factbook:

                Ukraine
                Country name:
                conventional long form: none
                conventional short form: Ukraine

                http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html


                > I know for a fact that many media outlets (such as
                > the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if
                it's in any submissions to them.
                >

                When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
                tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
                one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
                region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).
                In any case, the style guides of the Economist, the Guardian and the
                Times are against the 'the' here:

                http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717

                http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184820,00.html

                http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2941-581,00.html

                www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

                www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1991/499102.shtml


                HTH

                M.
              • grabanrad
                I d go for Jamie s the other , especially with the specific number (18) R.
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                  I'd go for Jamie's "the other", especially with the specific number (18)
                  R.
                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > On Feb 1, 2006, at 4:23 PM, magda.ferstlova wrote:
                  >
                  > > Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura
                  > > prekladu
                  > > do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
                  > > EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich
                  > > osmnacti zemi).
                  > > ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se
                  > > mozna
                  > > otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je
                  > > ANOTHER
                  > > u mnozneho cisla..
                  >
                  > You can't write "other eighteen countries" without an article, or it
                  > will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either "the other
                  > eighteen countries", which means something like "do tech dalsich 18
                  > zemi" (the specific countries are already known), or "another
                  > eighteen countries", which means something similar to "do nejakych
                  > dalsich 18 zemi" (there are 18 more countries, but you don't know
                  > which ones).
                  >
                  > > Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
                  > > dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se
                  > > to ucili
                  > > jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(
                  >
                  > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
                  > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
                  > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
                  >
                  > Jamie
                  >
                • grabanrad
                  Try this link for ISO countries names:http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                    Try this link for ISO countries
                    names:http://www.iso.org/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/list-en1.html
                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "coilinoc" <coilinoc@> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Since it's become a country, however, its official name is
                    > > just "Ukraine."
                    >
                    > Yup. See the CIA Factbook:
                    >
                    > Ukraine
                    > Country name:
                    > conventional long form: none
                    > conventional short form: Ukraine
                    >
                    > http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/up.html
                    >
                    >
                    > > I know for a fact that many media outlets (such as
                    > > the BBC) insist on this usage and editors will nix the article if
                    > it's in any submissions to them.
                    > >
                    >
                    > When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
                    > tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
                    > one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
                    > region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).
                    > In any case, the style guides of the Economist, the Guardian and the
                    > Times are against the 'the' here:
                    >
                    > http://www.economist.com/research/styleGuide/index.cfm?page=805717
                    >
                    > http://www.guardian.co.uk/styleguide/page/0,5817,184820,00.html
                    >
                    > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2941-581,00.html
                    >
                    > www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/
                    >
                    > www.ukrweekly.com/Archive/1991/499102.shtml
                    >
                    >
                    > HTH
                    >
                    > M.
                    >
                  • James Kirchner
                    ... A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to the Yemen . That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal to use it over there?
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                      On Feb 1, 2006, at 6:12 PM, melvyn.geo wrote:

                      > When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
                      > tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
                      > one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
                      > region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).

                      A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
                      Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal to
                      use it over there?

                      Jamie
                    • Helga Listen
                      Qustion: was the writer a native speaker of English? If no, and if he was a German NS this makes sense. We call it Der Jemen , but don´t ask me why. Helga
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                        Qustion: was the writer a native speaker of English? If no, and if he was a
                        German NS this makes sense. We call it "Der Jemen", but don�t ask me why.

                        Helga

                        (still lost in "detoxikace")



                        _____

                        From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of James Kirchner
                        Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:55 AM
                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...




                        On Feb 1, 2006, at 6:12 PM, melvyn.geo wrote:

                        > When I do articles for a journal on East European affairs, my client
                        > tells me the article is a definite no-no for Ukraine these days. Seems
                        > one reason is that some feel the article implies Ukraine is merely a
                        > region rather than an independent state (e.g. see Wikipedia article).

                        A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
                        Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal to
                        use it over there?

                        Jamie




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                      • James Kirchner
                        ... It is correctly called the USA , not just USA . We also say the US . The official name is The United States of America . However, a meat wholesaler
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                          On Feb 1, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                          > Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA is �The
                          > United
                          > states of America�?

                          It is correctly called "the USA", not just "USA". We also say "the
                          US". The official name is "The United States of America".

                          However, a meat wholesaler in my city was called "United Steaks of
                          America" without "the", I assume because when you went in there from
                          day to day or week to week, there were always new steaks (I hope),
                          and the name didn't refer to any particular set of steaks.

                          Students persistently leaving "the" out of "the USA", and saying
                          "USA" when it's more normal to say "the US", are two of my never-
                          ending ESL nightmares. They rank up there with students saying and
                          writing "Italia" and never learning to say "Italy" no matter how many
                          times they are told. (Or Czech kids saying "friz�r" in English no
                          matter how many times they're told the word doesn't exist in the
                          language.)

                          > As far as I know the article is used for this country.
                          > Same question for Netherlands (and maybe some others too).

                          The Netherlands.

                          Jamie



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James Kirchner
                          ... No, the writer was English. Jamie
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                            On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:02 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                            > Qustion: was the writer a native speaker of English? If no, and if
                            > he was a
                            > German NS this makes sense. We call it "Der Jemen", but don´t ask
                            > me why.

                            No, the writer was English.

                            Jamie
                          • Helga Listen
                            Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands. What I wanted to know is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands but ONLY Ukraine. Helga ... From:
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                              Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands. What I wanted to know
                              is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands but ONLY Ukraine.
                              Helga

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of James Kirchner
                              Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:05 AM
                              To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...


                              On Feb 1, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                              > Strange. Does that then mean, that the official name of USA is ?The
                              > United
                              > states of America??

                              It is correctly called "the USA", not just "USA". We also say "the
                              US". The official name is "The United States of America".

                              However, a meat wholesaler in my city was called "United Steaks of
                              America" without "the", I assume because when you went in there from
                              day to day or week to week, there were always new steaks (I hope),
                              and the name didn't refer to any particular set of steaks.

                              Students persistently leaving "the" out of "the USA", and saying
                              "USA" when it's more normal to say "the US", are two of my never-
                              ending ESL nightmares. They rank up there with students saying and
                              writing "Italia" and never learning to say "Italy" no matter how many
                              times they are told. (Or Czech kids saying "frizér" in English no
                              matter how many times they're told the word doesn't exist in the
                              language.)

                              > As far as I know the article is used for this country.
                              > Same question for Netherlands (and maybe some others too).

                              The Netherlands.

                              Jamie



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                            • James Kirchner
                              ... Yes, but you wrote the official name of USA , so I thought you didn t know. ... I think it s because the United States are those particular states that
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                                > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands.

                                Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so I thought you
                                didn't know.

                                > What I wanted to know
                                > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands

                                I think it's because the United States are those particular states
                                that form the nation, and not whatever American states you choose to
                                use that name for at the moment.

                                Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular lowlands, not just
                                any lowlands,

                                > but ONLY Ukraine.

                                There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one Germany. "States"
                                and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably need a definite
                                article to narrow down the field.

                                Jamie
                              • Jan Culka
                                Yes, Jamie, this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must include the
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                  Yes, Jamie,
                                  this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
                                  includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must include
                                  "the" as well.
                                  Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?
                                  Honza




                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                  To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...


                                  >
                                  > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE Netherlands.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so I thought you
                                  > didn't know.
                                  >
                                  > > What I wanted to know
                                  > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
                                  >
                                  > I think it's because the United States are those particular states
                                  > that form the nation, and not whatever American states you choose to
                                  > use that name for at the moment.
                                  >
                                  > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular lowlands, not just
                                  > any lowlands,
                                  >
                                  > > but ONLY Ukraine.
                                  >
                                  > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one Germany. "States"
                                  > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably need a definite
                                  > article to narrow down the field.
                                  >
                                  > Jamie
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Czechlist resources:
                                  > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • magda.ferstlova
                                  And how about my original question - ANOTHER used with PLURAL. Any ideas? Magda ... From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                    And how about my original question - ANOTHER used with PLURAL. Any ideas?
                                    Magda


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    Of magda.ferstlova
                                    Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 10:24 PM
                                    To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Czechlist] GRAMMAR: Another eighteen countries...

                                    Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura prekladu
                                    do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
                                    EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich osmnacti zemi).
                                    ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se mozna
                                    otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je ANOTHER
                                    u mnozneho cisla.. Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
                                    dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se to ucili
                                    jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :( Dekuji za napady Magda




                                    Czechlist resources:
                                    http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • spektrum2002
                                    Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: All European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were against it je spatne a
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Feb 1, 2006
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                                      Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
                                      European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
                                      against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?
                                      Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
                                      konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
                                      (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".
                                      Petr Adamek
                                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > On Feb 1, 2006, at 4:23 PM, magda.ferstlova wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Zdravim na skupine a mam gramaticky dotaz. Prisla mi dnes korektura
                                      > > prekladu
                                      > > do anglictiny, kde bylo opravneno OTHER EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES na ANOTHER
                                      > > EIGHTEEN COUNTRIES (ve vete ...."exportovat zbozi do dalsich
                                      > > osmnacti zemi).
                                      > > ANOTHER mi take zni v danem kontextu lepe, ale v prekladu jsem se
                                      > > mozna
                                      > > otrocky drzela shody v cisle, a nedokazu si tedy vysvetlit, proc je
                                      > > ANOTHER
                                      > > u mnozneho cisla..
                                      >
                                      > You can't write "other eighteen countries" without an article, or it
                                      > will be Czenglish. With an article, you can write either "the other
                                      > eighteen countries", which means something like "do tech dalsich 18
                                      > zemi" (the specific countries are already known), or "another
                                      > eighteen countries", which means something similar to "do nejakych
                                      > dalsich 18 zemi" (there are 18 more countries, but you don't know
                                      > which ones).
                                      >
                                      > > Mate nekdo nejake gramaticke vysvetleni? Mimochodem,
                                      > > dalsi chyba byla v THE UKRAINE (udajne nadbytecny clen), my jsme se
                                      > > to ucili
                                      > > jako striktni pravidlo, ktere uz asi zase neplati :(
                                      >
                                      > It's permissible to write "the Ukraine". In the Oxford American
                                      > dictionary I've just looked it up in, it's not listed as the most
                                      > common way to refer to the country, but it's allowed.
                                      >
                                      > Jamie
                                      >
                                    • Jirka Bolech
                                      Nazdar lidi, pred cislovkou se pouziva another , nikoliv other , ac se to muze jevit v rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem another = an + other pro pouzivani
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                        Nazdar lidi,

                                        pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
                                        rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
                                        pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

                                        Jirka Bolech
                                      • Patty Wan
                                        Dear Honza ... As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used with the . If talking about the population, we use the as in the Thai . Regards, Pat
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Honza
                                          >And what about Thailand?
                                          As a Thai, I have not heard that the country name used
                                          with 'the'. If talking about the population, we use
                                          'the' as in 'the Thai'.
                                          Regards,
                                          Pat

                                          --- Jan Culka <culka@...> wrote:

                                          > Yes, Jamie,
                                          > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name
                                          > of the country
                                          > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom,
                                          > etc,. they must include
                                          > "the" as well.
                                          > Is this correct from your point of view? And what
                                          > about Thailand?
                                          > Honza
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                          > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:20 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another
                                          > eighteen countries...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > On Feb 1, 2006, at 10:12 PM, Helga Listen wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > > Jamie, I know that it is THE US and THE
                                          > Netherlands.
                                          > >
                                          > > Yes, but you wrote "the official name of USA", so
                                          > I thought you
                                          > > didn't know.
                                          > >
                                          > > > What I wanted to know
                                          > > > is, WHY THE US and THE Netherlands
                                          > >
                                          > > I think it's because the United States are those
                                          > particular states
                                          > > that form the nation, and not whatever American
                                          > states you choose to
                                          > > use that name for at the moment.
                                          > >
                                          > > Similarly, the Netherlands are those particular
                                          > lowlands, not just
                                          > > any lowlands,
                                          > >
                                          > > > but ONLY Ukraine.
                                          > >
                                          > > There's only one Ukraine, just as there's only one
                                          > Germany. "States"
                                          > > and "lands" are generic terms, so they probably
                                          > need a definite
                                          > > article to narrow down the field.
                                          > >
                                          > > Jamie
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Czechlist resources:
                                          > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >


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                                        • magda.ferstlova
                                          Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit. Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi. Magda ... From:
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                            Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to najit.
                                            Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.
                                            Magda


                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                            Of Jirka Bolech
                                            Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 9:07 AM
                                            To: Smartgroups; Yahoogroups
                                            Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                                            Nazdar lidi,

                                            pred cislovkou se pouziva 'another', nikoliv 'other', ac se to muze jevit v
                                            rozporu s prvotnim vyznamem 'another' = 'an' + 'other' pro pouzivani pred
                                            pocitatelnymi jmeny v jednotnem cisle...

                                            Jirka Bolech



                                            Czechlist resources:
                                            http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • James Kirchner
                                            ... I think it s more about specificity than about which word comes after it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb. ... There s no article with that
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                              On Feb 2, 2006, at 1:47 AM, Jan Culka wrote:

                                              > Yes, Jamie,
                                              > this is exactly what they taught us - when the name of the country
                                              > includes -land/s, republic, union, state, kingdom, etc,. they must
                                              > include
                                              > "the" as well.

                                              I think it's more about specificity than about which word comes after
                                              it, but they probably gave you a good rule of thumb.

                                              > Is this correct from your point of view? And what about Thailand?

                                              There's no article with that name. I don't know why, but it seems to
                                              me that whenever you have a compound in which "-land" is singular,
                                              and it means "the land in which X is found" or "the land named after
                                              X" there is no article. This is true of countries and districts like
                                              Thailand, Swaziland, Iceland, Greenland, England ("Angle-land"),
                                              Ireland, etc., and unofficial designations like "Yankee land" (i.e.,
                                              the northern US). It even includes strange and imaginary places like
                                              Disneyland and Candyland. (Compare this to "the Czech lands", "the
                                              Netherlands", etc.)

                                              Notice that in some expressions we also don't use the article with
                                              the word "country". We can say people live in "wheat country", "corn
                                              country", "Bible country", "GM country", etc. Compare this to "the
                                              Wheat Belt", "the Corn Belt", "the Bible Belt", "the Rust Belt",
                                              etc. We also don't use an article when using "town" in this way:
                                              hockeytown, Boys Town, gossip town, etc.

                                              Maybe someone else knows the formal rule.

                                              Jamie
                                            • James Kirchner
                                              ... It s definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be 18 other countries or another 18 countries or the other 18 countries , but other 18
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                                On Feb 2, 2006, at 2:50 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                                                > Mne ten vyklad uplne neuspokojuje. Znamena to, ze trebas: "All
                                                > European countries seconded the proposal but other 18 countries were
                                                > against it" je spatne a melo tam byt "another"?

                                                It's definitely bad grammar in that sentence. It can be "18 other
                                                countries" or "another 18 countries" or "the other 18 countries", but
                                                "other 18 countries" alone, without an article (the other, an+other)
                                                or a number preceding it is wrong.

                                                > Ja jsem mel vzdycky pocit, ze "another eighteen" v sobe nese urcitou
                                                > konotaci "batch of ..", "group of ..." apod. V cestine bych "other"
                                                > (ez clenu) prelozil jako "jinych", kdezto "another" jako "dalsich".

                                                You're right, but in English that "other" would not appear without an
                                                article or a number before it. Your translations of the word are
                                                good approximations, but remember that "the other" can also mean
                                                "ostatni"".

                                                the other 18 countries = ostatnich 18 zemi

                                                another 18 countries = jeste 18 dalsich zemi

                                                18 other countries = 18 jinych zemi

                                                other 18 countries = (neni mozne)

                                                Jamie
                                              • James Kirchner
                                                ... The rule doesn t seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners. Here is something
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Feb 2, 2006
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                                                  On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:49 AM, magda.ferstlova wrote:

                                                  > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice? Nemuzu to
                                                  > najit.
                                                  > Vim, ze to je spravne, ale ten rozpor mi tam vadi.

                                                  The rule doesn't seem to be listed in any of my grammars for native
                                                  speakers. I think you have to look in a dictionary for foreigners.

                                                  Here is something from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
                                                  Online:

                                                  an‧oth‧er S1 W1
                                                  1 additional - one more person or thing of the same type:
                                                  I'm going to have another cup of coffee.
                                                  There'll be another bus along in a few minutes.
                                                  Buy two CDs and get another completely free.

                                                  another of
                                                  Is this another of your schemes to make money?
                                                  Not another word was spoken.
                                                  Oh look, there's another one of those birds.
                                                  This misunderstanding is yet another example of bad communication
                                                  (=there have already been several).

                                                  another two/10/100 etc (=an additional amount or number)
                                                  We'll have to wait another three weeks for the results.
                                                  There's still another £100 to pay.

                                                  2 a different one - not the same thing, person etc, but a different one:
                                                  They must have returned by another route.
                                                  We finally moved to another apartment.
                                                  I'm busy right now. Could you come back another time?
                                                  Helen resigned from her last job and has yet to find another.

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Jirka Bolech
                                                  Ahoj Magdo, ... Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se,
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
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                                                    Ahoj Magdo,

                                                    > Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?

                                                    Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja nemam v
                                                    tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych se, ze ve
                                                    stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to bude...

                                                    Jirka Bolech
                                                  • James Kirchner
                                                    ... I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and this doesn t seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any specific way. I have
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

                                                      > Ahoj Magdo,
                                                      >
                                                      >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                                      >
                                                      > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                                      > nemam v
                                                      > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                                                      > se, ze ve
                                                      > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                                                      > bude...

                                                      I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                                      this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                                      specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                                                      grammar manuals, and it's not in them.

                                                      I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                                      and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                                                      up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                                      www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                                      (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                                      difference should be clear.

                                                      Jamie
                                                    • danabal@centrum.cz
                                                      Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan): Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
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                                                        Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                                                        "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day, but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number with a plural noun.
                                                        I've got another three days of holiday.
                                                        There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                                                        Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but not (in this sense) three other days."

                                                        A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                                                        "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                                                        a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                                                        b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                                                        Dana Balicka
                                                        ______________________________________________________________
                                                        > Od: jpklists@...
                                                        > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > CC:
                                                        > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                                                        > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > Ahoj Magdo,
                                                        > >
                                                        > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                                        > > nemam v
                                                        > > tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul bych
                                                        > > se, ze ve
                                                        > > stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda Murphyho to
                                                        > > bude...
                                                        >
                                                        > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                                        > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                                        > specific way. I have also checked various American and British
                                                        > grammar manuals, and it's not in them.
                                                        >
                                                        > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                                        > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look
                                                        > up the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                                        > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                                        > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                                        > difference should be clear.
                                                        >
                                                        > Jamie
                                                      • magda.ferstlova
                                                        Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc! Magda ... From:
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Feb 5, 2006
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                                                          Dano, to je presne ono. Swan nikdy nezklame, porad jsem se do nej chtela v
                                                          praci kouknout, ale byla jste rychlejsi, diky moc!
                                                          Magda


                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                          Of danabal@...
                                                          Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:22 PM
                                                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...

                                                          Nasla jsem neco v knize Practical English Usage (by Michael Swan):

                                                          "Normally, another is followed by a singular noun: we can say another day,
                                                          but not another days. However, another can be followed by 'few' or a number
                                                          with a plural noun.
                                                          I've got another three days of holiday.
                                                          There's room for another few people in the back of the bus.
                                                          Note that instead of another three days, we could say three more days, but
                                                          not (in this sense) three other days."

                                                          A take stary dobry Hais (Anglická mluvnice) o tom pise:

                                                          "Another je dvouznacne, znamena

                                                          a) jiny (that's another matter - to je jina vec, another time - jindy),

                                                          b) jeste jeden, dalsi (another cup of tea - jeste jeden salek caje); v tomto
                                                          druhem smyslu se ho uziva i s mnoznym cislem, ale samo se nemeni (in another
                                                          ten years - za dalsich deset let)".

                                                          Dana Balicka
                                                          ______________________________________________________________
                                                          > Od: jpklists@...
                                                          > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > CC:
                                                          > Datum: 05.02.2006 13:43
                                                          > Předmět: Re: [Czechlist] Re: GRAMMAR: Another eighteen ...
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:41 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > Ahoj Magdo,
                                                          > >
                                                          > >> Ano, takove pravidlo potrebuju, je to v nejake gramatice?
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Nepochybne se to da najit v ruznych ucebnicich a cvicebnicich. Ja
                                                          > > nemam v tuto chvili vetsinu podobnych svych knih u sebe, ale tipnul
                                                          > > bych se, ze ve stredne pokrocile gramaticke cvicebnici od Raymonda
                                                          > > Murphyho to bude...
                                                          >
                                                          > I have checked the Murphy book (at least the American version) and
                                                          > this doesn't seem to be treated in the intermediate book in any
                                                          > specific way. I have also checked various American and British grammar
                                                          > manuals, and it's not in them.
                                                          >
                                                          > I think the problem is more one of the separate meanings of "other"
                                                          > and "another". For that you have to go to a dictionary. If you look up
                                                          > the two words in the Longman Online Dictionary (http://
                                                          > www.ldoceonline.com/) and the Merriam Webster online dictionary
                                                          > (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/), and compare the definitions, the
                                                          > difference should be clear.
                                                          >
                                                          > Jamie







                                                          Czechlist resources:
                                                          http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation


                                                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        • melvyn.geo
                                                          ... to use it over there? Not these days IMHO. I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names: http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Feb 7, 2006
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                                                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                                                            > A few years ago, I read a British book that kept referring to "the
                                                            > Yemen". That article was a complete surprise to me. Is it normal
                                                            to use it over there?

                                                            Not these days IMHO.

                                                            I found a useful article on the use of articles in country names:

                                                            http://www.vxu.se/hum/publ/gtn/news01_1.html

                                                            The natural starting-point would then be to find out under which
                                                            names the governments of these nations want their countries to be
                                                            known. In a sample of five different yearbooks, encyclopedias and UN
                                                            publications two of these names never appear with the article, namely
                                                            Lebanon and Yemen. On the other hand, the Congo is the preferred form
                                                            in four out of the five sources.
                                                            <snip>
                                                            The Web search confirmed our other findings as regards Yemen and
                                                            Lebanon. Only 2% and 1%, respectively, of their occurrences included
                                                            the article.
                                                            <snip>
                                                            To sum up, if the warcry is 'Frequency Rules!', we can gladly
                                                            continue saying and writing the Congo and the Gambia, but leave out
                                                            the article in the other nation names. A justified pedagogical
                                                            simplification is to tell students that they never have to use the
                                                            definite article with any nation name in the singular. Personally, I
                                                            would travesty the old saying 'When in Rome, do as the Romans', and
                                                            try to live by the motto: 'When in the Gambia, say the Gambia, but
                                                            when in Ukraine, don't say the Ukraine!'

                                                            BR

                                                            M.
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