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[Czechlist] Czech korunas versus Czech crowns

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  • Petr Veselý
    Hi folks While browsing through the Business Vocabulary in Use by CUP, I came across the term korunas reffering to the Slovak currency, e.g. each chair costs
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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      Hi folks

      While browsing through the Business Vocabulary in Use by CUP, I came across
      the term "korunas" reffering to the Slovak currency, e.g. each chair costs
      360 korunas to make.
      I checked whether this use was supported by Google and it is, indeed, over
      15,000 hits. Is it a new trend which will replace the good old Czech
      (Slovak)crowns, which still prevail (80,000 hits)? Do you use it yourselves?
      Do you like it more than Czech crowns?

      Petr
    • James Kirchner
      ... To me, crowns and koruna are the same. Note that the name of the Swedish currency krona (plural kronor ) also means crown, but I don t think I have
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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        On Wednesday, October 5, 2005, at 04:32 AM, Petr Veselý wrote:

        > While browsing through the Business Vocabulary in Use by CUP, I came
        > across
        > the term "korunas" reffering to the Slovak currency, e.g. each chair
        > costs
        > 360 korunas to make.
        > I checked whether this use was supported by Google and it is, indeed,
        > over
        > 15,000 hits. Is it a new trend which will replace the good old Czech
        > (Slovak)crowns, which still prevail (80,000 hits)? Do you use it
        > yourselves?
        > Do you like it more than Czech crowns?

        To me, crowns and koruna are the same. Note that the name of the
        Swedish currency "krona" (plural "kronor") also means crown, but I
        don't think I have ever in my entire life heard it referred to as a
        crown. The same thing with the other Scandinavian currencies.

        So it would be perfectly normal in English to call the Slovak currency
        the koruna. The thing I don't like, however, is "korunas". Putting an
        English plural suffix on the word really grates on my nerves. Of
        course, we do say "dollars", "pounds", "shillings", "francs", and
        "rupees", but there's a certain line of exoticness you cross, beyond
        which we don't form an English plural. We say "100 yen" and not "100
        yens", "100 renminbi" and not "100 renminbies", "100 real" and not "100
        reals" (or at least "reals" doesn't sound right to me), "100 lev" and
        not "100 levs". (I think you could say either "dinar" or "dinars" for
        the plural.) To my ears, the word "koruna" is beyond that frontier of
        exoticness and should not be given an English plural. So I would say,
        "Each chair costs 360 koruna to make." Other people will have other
        opinions.

        Jamie


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gerald Turner
        I agree with you there, Jamie ;-) Gerry ... Other people will have other opinions.
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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          I agree with you there, Jamie ;-)

          Gerry


          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
          Other people will have other opinions.
          >
          > Jamie
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Michael Gmail
          As for me, for once I m in full agreement. Michael ... -- Lobotomies for everyone! Me first please. - Apesnake
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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            As for me, for once I'm in full agreement.
            Michael


            On Oct 5, 2005, at 4:48 AM, James Kirchner wrote:

            > To my ears, the word "koruna" is beyond that frontier of
            > exoticness and should not be given an English plural. So I would say,
            > "Each chair costs 360 koruna to make." Other people will have other
            > opinions.

            --

            "Lobotomies for everyone! Me first please."
            - Apesnake
          • Michael Trittipo
            ... Those numbers need to be trimmed a bit to reflect who is behind the pages. If you do a search on czech korunas site:.edu in order to restrict it to
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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              Petr Veselý wrote:
              > 360 korunas . . .
              > 15,000 hits. . . . crowns . . . still prevail (80,000 hits)?

              Those numbers need to be trimmed a bit to reflect who
              is behind the pages. If you do a search on

              "czech korunas" site:.edu

              in order to restrict it to academic pages, the count
              drops to 28, bs. 270 for

              "czech crowns" site:.edu

              and the imbalance is even more striking if one uses
              site:.us instead of site:.edu: 3 with the "korunas"
              form, and 1,890 with the "crowns" form. A lot of those
              other hits have to come from .com, .int, .pl, etc.
              sites that are less likely than .edu and .us ones to be
              written by native anglophones.
            • Petr Veselý
              OK, but my query originated from the Business Vocabulary in Use textbook by CUP, the authors of which are native speakers and which should be more or less
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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                OK, but my query originated from the Business Vocabulary in Use textbook by
                CUP, the authors of which are native speakers and which should be more or
                less authoritative IMHO; a sentence in there expressly said 360 korunas.
                Anyway, thanks for your stands on this issue, I can see that it is probably
                just a mistake, though a widespread one.

                Petr

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Michael Trittipo" <tritt002@...>
                To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 4:48 AM
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Czech korunas versus Czech crowns


                > Petr Veselý wrote:
                >> 360 korunas . . .
                >> 15,000 hits. . . . crowns . . . still prevail (80,000 hits)?
                >
                > Those numbers need to be trimmed a bit to reflect who
                > is behind the pages. If you do a search on
                >
                > "czech korunas" site:.edu
                >
                > in order to restrict it to academic pages, the count
                > drops to 28, bs. 270 for
                >
                > "czech crowns" site:.edu
                >
                > and the imbalance is even more striking if one uses
                > site:.us instead of site:.edu: 3 with the "korunas"
                > form, and 1,890 with the "crowns" form. A lot of those
                > other hits have to come from .com, .int, .pl, etc.
                > sites that are less likely than .edu and .us ones to be
                > written by native anglophones.
                >
                >
                >
                > Czechlist resources:
                > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • melvyn.geo
                ... I half-agree. FWIW the English pages of the Czech National Bank site seem to use koruna a lot more than crown with reference to the name of the currency.
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
                  > Other people will have other opinions.

                  <czechin@n...> wrote:
                  > I agree with you there, Jamie ;-)
                  >

                  I half-agree.

                  FWIW the English pages of the Czech National Bank site seem to use
                  koruna a lot more than crown with reference to the name of the
                  currency. Make of that what you will.

                  But as for sentences like 'A half-liter beer costs 90 Czech Koruna
                  ($3.20) at a cafe in the Old Town', well, I'm all in favour of 'local
                  colour', but I don't think this kind of thing is necessarily the best
                  way of providing it. Still, OK in some contexts (e.g. tourist
                  literature), I guess.

                  And 'korunas' does sound very ungainly and unnecessary IMHO.

                  BR

                  M.
                  Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that
                  you do it.
                  - Mahatma Gandhi
                • James Kirchner
                  ... Textbooks frequently contain things that are either wrong or disputable. That s why the publishers usually have consultants test and comment on them
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                    On Thursday, October 6, 2005, at 01:34 AM, Petr Veselý wrote:

                    > OK, but my query originated from the Business Vocabulary in Use
                    > textbook by
                    > CUP, the authors of which are native speakers and which should be more
                    > or
                    > less authoritative IMHO; a sentence in there expressly said 360
                    > korunas.
                    > Anyway, thanks for your stands on this issue, I can see that it is
                    > probably
                    > just a mistake, though a widespread one.

                    Textbooks frequently contain things that are either wrong or
                    disputable. That's why the publishers usually have consultants test
                    and comment on them before they complete them.

                    One example: An ESL pronunciation textbook I am consulting on right
                    now is written by a well-known and -respected ESL professor who is an
                    expert on phonology. Nonetheless, last week when I went over one of
                    the exercises I am testing, I found that she had "bore" and "poor" as
                    rhyming words. In the southeastern US, where she lives and teaches,
                    some people don't have the lax /U/ vowel, and they would pronounce
                    "poor" as [por], but this is a really bad pronunciation to teach
                    foreign students of English, because most native English speakers would
                    never pronounce it this way. This pronunciation is so natural to her
                    because of her native dialect that she didn't realize it was odd to put
                    it in a textbook. Then it got past the editors of one of the most
                    important academic publishers in the US.

                    Read textbooks just a little more trust than you give the newspaper.

                    Jamie


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gerald Turner
                    ... Not counting the B/E dialect, of course. Gerry
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      >In the southeastern US, where she lives and teaches,
                      > some people don't have the lax /U/ vowel, and they would pronounce
                      > "poor" as [por], but this is a really bad pronunciation to teach
                      > foreign students of English, because most native English speakers would
                      > never pronounce it this way.

                      Not counting the B/E dialect, of course.

                      Gerry
                    • melvyn.geo
                      ... would ... Of course. Symbols used: u = the vowel in put 0 = the vowel in port, talk, boring @ = the first vowel in about, the last vowel in sofa and butter
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                        > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >In the southeastern US, where she lives and teaches,
                        > > some people don't have the lax /U/ vowel, and they would pronounce
                        > > "poor" as [por], but this is a really bad pronunciation to teach
                        > > foreign students of English, because most native English speakers
                        would
                        > > never pronounce it this way.

                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Turner" <czechin@n...> wrote:

                        > Not counting the B/E dialect, of course.

                        Of course.

                        Symbols used:
                        u = the vowel in put
                        0 = the vowel in port, talk, boring
                        @ = the first vowel in about, the last vowel in sofa and butter (schwa)

                        The situation in BrEng does not appear to be simple. My Collins
                        Cobuild dictionary lists pu@ and p0: as acceptable for 'poor'.

                        In "International English - A Guide to Varieties of Standard English",
                        Trudgill and Hannah point out that even within RP, pronunciation of
                        this and similar words varies according to the age of the speakers.
                        They list the following vowel sounds (hope this shows up OK):

                        paw pore poor
                        Older speakers 0: 0@ u@
                        Middle-age speakers 0: 0: u@
                        Younger speakers 0: 0: 0:


                        BR

                        M.
                        Inexcusable sexist joke:
                        Why isn't God a woman?

                        ...and She said "let there be light!" and there was light.
                        And She said "Yeah, great, erm could I just have another look at the
                        darkness, please?
                      • James Kirchner
                        ... It depends on which variety of BEV you re talking about. Jamie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                          On Thursday, October 6, 2005, at 09:06 AM, Gerald Turner wrote:

                          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >In the southeastern US, where she lives and teaches,
                          > > some people don't have the lax /U/ vowel, and they would pronounce
                          > > "poor" as [por], but this is a really bad pronunciation to teach
                          > > foreign students of English, because most native English speakers
                          > would
                          > > never pronounce it this way. 
                          >
                          > Not counting the B/E dialect, of course.

                          It depends on which variety of BEV you're talking about.

                          Jamie



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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