Re: [Czechlist] Re: Term:Doc. MUDr. CSc.
- I think I'm going to defend Jamie here (alth' there were/are times I
wouldn't hesitate to do the exact opposite...)
I don't see the point of flashing all those things in front and behind one's
name in Czech (I do have two potential ones I could use if I wanted, in
fact, I learned to use at least one when dealing with "urady" and doctors,
don't ask me why, but it really does make a difference)... and trying to
force them on Eng native speakers where they have no meaning is pure
Is it only us and German-speaking countries who are so obsessive about these
things? (could have something to do with the old C&K then)..
Come on, Kostas, if Czech was a global language, or even if it isn't, we
wouldn't be happy about someone literaly translating things that don't exist
in Czech culture/life/usage... and insist on them being there even when told
it makes the sentence/document sound stupid... can't think of an example
right now, but I'm sure there would be plenty...
Interestingly enough, we've just submitted a translation of a dodgy
banking/financial group whose ten basic big shots present on every Bod and
Supervisory board all had three tittles to their name, and two (!) even used
jr. behind their name (as if the possibility of confusing "Mgr. Ing. Jan
Krakora Dr. Sc., MBA" with anyone else in his family wasn't pretty damn thin
as it is...) - the translator (Brit Eng native) decided to do a clean cut
and dropped EVERY single title, I must admit the list of names in the target
segments looked very unimpressive all of a sudden, I must be sub-consciously
indoctrinated :) I'm expecting to have to do some explaining (to the now
"title-less" bankres, and perhaps the website content people as well)
I'm all in favour of dropping here, unless the text is actually about
someone's academic achievements, or the dropping would change its meaning in
any way, of course, but I personally don't need to know if the rich bastard
who buys a new Porsche every other year using what I pay his company for
keeping MY money had previously earned/purchased some odd-sounding and
ill-combined collection of titles...
... and yes, (Petr, was it?) I do think it's another Commie relic (unless of
course it does go back to the old Empire)
----- Original Message -----
From: "kzgafas" <kzgafas@...>
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:01 PM
Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Term:Doc. MUDr. CSc.
Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I
would call as "an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship". :-)
--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
> You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially
> as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my
> "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr."
> nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and
> things, as far as I know.
> There is also the problem of excessive titles used in Czech that
> to be trimmed down for English, so that they won't sound comical.
> once saw a Czech man's name rendered as something to the effect
> Prof. Ing. Jan Hajzlík, CSc." Translating all these titles into
> English would produce an absolutely ridiculous impression, and
> highest, most prestigious one should be used. In fact, there's
> currently a popular series of novels in English that makes fun of
> phenomenon of serial academic titles. The characters are European
> intellectuals, and the main protagonist is "Prof. Dr. Dr. von
> and his mentor, if I have it right, is "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr.
> The other problem is what to do about titles that don't exist in
> English. I generally leave "Ing." out, because 99 percent of
> English-speaking readers don't know what it means. A couple of
> I've done pieces where the inzenyrs themselves got upset with this
> insisted the title nonetheless precede their names. I said
> to the effect of, "Okay, but people here are going to think that
> Czech men are named Ignac." Life imitates humor, and a year or
> later I met some intelligent, cultured anglophones who really had
> assumed that "Ing." was the abbreviation of the men's Christian
> and that their real first name was their middle name.
> And whatever you do, if you're translating from Hungarian into
> don't write the guy's name as "Shmoe Joe Professor Doctor
> On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 05:48 PM, kzgafas wrote:
> > I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc
> > (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
> > international language, then titles should be standardized
> > into English) for the sake of international communication.
> > Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the
> > K.
> > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
> > > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some
> > > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting
> > > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor ....
> > > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
> > > translate?
> > >
> > > TIA Amir
> > Czechlist resources:
> > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > + Visit your group "Czechlist" on the web.
> > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Czechlistfirstname.lastname@example.org
> > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
- I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries
are based on different qualifications, and "translating" them could
lead the reader to believe that an individual has specific training/
examinations/experience that he may not actually have, or in some
cases a generally higher or lower level of qualification than is
actually true. Except in very informal contexts, I would always leave
academic and professional qualifications in the original.
On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:52 PM, James Kirchner wrote:
> You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially rendered
> as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my life a
> "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr." There is
> nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and other
> things, as far as I know.
Ausfuhrbestimmungen sind Erklärungen zu den Erklärungen, mit denen
man eine Erklärung erklärt.
(Protokoll im Wirtschaftsministerium)
- --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Gmail <mgrant@g...> wrote:
> I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countriesleave
> are based on different qualifications, and "translating" them could
> lead the reader to believe that an individual has specific training/
> examinations/experience that he may not actually have, or in some
> cases a generally higher or lower level of qualification than is
> actually true. Except in very informal contexts, I would always
> academic and professional qualifications in the original.I'm totally with Michael on this one. Degrees and qualifications are
specific to each country. For example, an Irish leaving certificate
biology qualification is very different to an A-level biology
qualification and these are two countries that speak the same
Moreover, as far as I know being an MUDr. does not entitle you to
practice medicine as a doctor in the US. Therefore translating it as
MD would in effect be a mistranslation, especially if the document was
intended for a monolingual US reader.
I always leave the original abbreviations and, where appropriate, I
asterisk the qualification and subsequently insert a footnote like *
ing. - qualification equivalent to Master of Science/Master of
economcis in the Czech Republic. (depending in the institution that
is awarding it). This has the advantage of letting the reader know
what the person in question is qualified to do in their own country
without giving them the impression that they have a US/UK/Irish-
standard qualification (which could be better or worse...). Of course,
the drawback is it can sometimes be quite cumbersome doing this...
- On Monday, October 3, 2005, at 06:41 PM, coilinoc wrote:
> Moreover, as far as I know being an MUDr. does not entitle you toI have MUDr's and their equivalents from other countries show up in my
> practice medicine as a doctor in the US. Therefore translating it as
> MD would in effect be a mistranslation, especially if the document was
> intended for a monolingual US reader.
classes, and they are qualified to practice medicine here if they pass
their state medical board exams. I'm not an expert on it, but I don't
think it's so much that the degree is different, but that the exams
are. The ones in my classes appear to go through some ESL training,
take their boards, and then practice medicine. So, for practical
purposes, a MUDr. seems to be equivalent to an MD. The story I usually
get is that a MUDr. is trained more low-tech (depending on the country)
than the American MD is, and this is where the problems passing the
board exams arises.
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