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Re: Term:Doc. MUDr. CSc.

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  • kzgafas
    Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I would call as an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship . :-) K. ... rendered ... life a
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 2, 2005
      Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I
      would call as "an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship". :-)

      K.

      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
      wrote:
      > You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially
      rendered
      > as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my
      life a
      > "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr."
      There is
      > nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and
      other
      > things, as far as I know.
      >
      > There is also the problem of excessive titles used in Czech that
      have
      > to be trimmed down for English, so that they won't sound comical.
      I
      > once saw a Czech man's name rendered as something to the effect
      of "Dr.
      > Prof. Ing. Jan Hajzlík, CSc." Translating all these titles into
      > English would produce an absolutely ridiculous impression, and
      only the
      > highest, most prestigious one should be used. In fact, there's
      > currently a popular series of novels in English that makes fun of
      this
      > phenomenon of serial academic titles. The characters are European
      > intellectuals, and the main protagonist is "Prof. Dr. Dr. von
      Igelfeld"
      > and his mentor, if I have it right, is "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr.
      Vogelsang".
      >
      > The other problem is what to do about titles that don't exist in
      > English. I generally leave "Ing." out, because 99 percent of
      > English-speaking readers don't know what it means. A couple of
      times
      > I've done pieces where the inzenyrs themselves got upset with this
      and
      > insisted the title nonetheless precede their names. I said
      something
      > to the effect of, "Okay, but people here are going to think that
      most
      > Czech men are named Ignac." Life imitates humor, and a year or
      two
      > later I met some intelligent, cultured anglophones who really had
      > assumed that "Ing." was the abbreviation of the men's Christian
      name
      > and that their real first name was their middle name.
      >
      > And whatever you do, if you're translating from Hungarian into
      English,
      > don't write the guy's name as "Shmoe Joe Professor Doctor
      Mister". :-)
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 05:48 PM, kzgafas wrote:
      >
      > > I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc
      as PhD.
      > > (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
      > > international language, then titles should be standardized
      (translated
      > > into English) for the sake of international communication.
      > > Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the
      context. 
      > >
      > > K.
      > >
      > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
      > > > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some
      names
      > > > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting
      the "Doc.
      > > > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor ....
      MD,
      > > > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
      > > > translate?
      > > >
      > > > TIA Amir
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Czechlist resources:
      > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > <image.tiff>
      > >
      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > > +  Visit your group "Czechlist" on the web.
      > >  
      > > +  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > >  Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >  
      > > +  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      Service.
      > >
      > >
      > <image.tiff>
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Terminus Technicus
      I think I m going to defend Jamie here (alth there were/are times I wouldn t hesitate to do the exact opposite...) I don t see the point of flashing all those
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 2, 2005
        I think I'm going to defend Jamie here (alth' there were/are times I
        wouldn't hesitate to do the exact opposite...)

        I don't see the point of flashing all those things in front and behind one's
        name in Czech (I do have two potential ones I could use if I wanted, in
        fact, I learned to use at least one when dealing with "urady" and doctors,
        don't ask me why, but it really does make a difference)... and trying to
        force them on Eng native speakers where they have no meaning is pure
        Czenglish...

        Is it only us and German-speaking countries who are so obsessive about these
        things? (could have something to do with the old C&K then)..

        Come on, Kostas, if Czech was a global language, or even if it isn't, we
        wouldn't be happy about someone literaly translating things that don't exist
        in Czech culture/life/usage... and insist on them being there even when told
        it makes the sentence/document sound stupid... can't think of an example
        right now, but I'm sure there would be plenty...

        Interestingly enough, we've just submitted a translation of a dodgy
        banking/financial group whose ten basic big shots present on every Bod and
        Supervisory board all had three tittles to their name, and two (!) even used
        jr. behind their name (as if the possibility of confusing "Mgr. Ing. Jan
        Krakora Dr. Sc., MBA" with anyone else in his family wasn't pretty damn thin
        as it is...) - the translator (Brit Eng native) decided to do a clean cut
        and dropped EVERY single title, I must admit the list of names in the target
        segments looked very unimpressive all of a sudden, I must be sub-consciously
        indoctrinated :) I'm expecting to have to do some explaining (to the now
        "title-less" bankres, and perhaps the website content people as well)
        soon...

        I'm all in favour of dropping here, unless the text is actually about
        someone's academic achievements, or the dropping would change its meaning in
        any way, of course, but I personally don't need to know if the rich bastard
        who buys a new Porsche every other year using what I pay his company for
        keeping MY money had previously earned/purchased some odd-sounding and
        ill-combined collection of titles...

        ... and yes, (Petr, was it?) I do think it's another Commie relic (unless of
        course it does go back to the old Empire)

        Ing. Matej







        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "kzgafas" <kzgafas@...>
        To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:01 PM
        Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Term:Doc. MUDr. CSc.


        Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I
        would call as "an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship". :-)

        K.

        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
        wrote:
        > You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially
        rendered
        > as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my
        life a
        > "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr."
        There is
        > nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and
        other
        > things, as far as I know.
        >
        > There is also the problem of excessive titles used in Czech that
        have
        > to be trimmed down for English, so that they won't sound comical.
        I
        > once saw a Czech man's name rendered as something to the effect
        of "Dr.
        > Prof. Ing. Jan Hajzlík, CSc." Translating all these titles into
        > English would produce an absolutely ridiculous impression, and
        only the
        > highest, most prestigious one should be used. In fact, there's
        > currently a popular series of novels in English that makes fun of
        this
        > phenomenon of serial academic titles. The characters are European
        > intellectuals, and the main protagonist is "Prof. Dr. Dr. von
        Igelfeld"
        > and his mentor, if I have it right, is "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr.
        Vogelsang".
        >
        > The other problem is what to do about titles that don't exist in
        > English. I generally leave "Ing." out, because 99 percent of
        > English-speaking readers don't know what it means. A couple of
        times
        > I've done pieces where the inzenyrs themselves got upset with this
        and
        > insisted the title nonetheless precede their names. I said
        something
        > to the effect of, "Okay, but people here are going to think that
        most
        > Czech men are named Ignac." Life imitates humor, and a year or
        two
        > later I met some intelligent, cultured anglophones who really had
        > assumed that "Ing." was the abbreviation of the men's Christian
        name
        > and that their real first name was their middle name.
        >
        > And whatever you do, if you're translating from Hungarian into
        English,
        > don't write the guy's name as "Shmoe Joe Professor Doctor
        Mister". :-)
        >
        > Jamie
        >
        > On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 05:48 PM, kzgafas wrote:
        >
        > > I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc
        as PhD.
        > > (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
        > > international language, then titles should be standardized
        (translated
        > > into English) for the sake of international communication.
        > > Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the
        context.
        > >
        > > K.
        > >
        > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
        > > > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some
        names
        > > > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting
        the "Doc.
        > > > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor ....
        MD,
        > > > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
        > > > translate?
        > > >
        > > > TIA Amir
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Czechlist resources:
        > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > <image.tiff>
        > >
        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        > >
        > > + Visit your group "Czechlist" on the web.
        > >
        > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        > >
        > >
        > <image.tiff>
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        Czechlist resources:
        http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation













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      • Michael Gmail
        I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries are based on different qualifications, and translating them could lead the reader to
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 3, 2005
          I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries
          are based on different qualifications, and "translating" them could
          lead the reader to believe that an individual has specific training/
          examinations/experience that he may not actually have, or in some
          cases a generally higher or lower level of qualification than is
          actually true. Except in very informal contexts, I would always leave
          academic and professional qualifications in the original.

          Michael

          On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:52 PM, James Kirchner wrote:

          > You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially rendered
          > as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my life a
          > "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr." There is
          > nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and other
          > things, as far as I know.
          >

          --

          Ausfuhrbestimmungen sind Erklärungen zu den Erklärungen, mit denen
          man eine Erklärung erklärt.
          (Protokoll im Wirtschaftsministerium)
        • coilinoc
          ... leave ... I m totally with Michael on this one. Degrees and qualifications are specific to each country. For example, an Irish leaving certificate
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 3, 2005
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Gmail <mgrant@g...> wrote:
            > I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries
            > are based on different qualifications, and "translating" them could
            > lead the reader to believe that an individual has specific training/
            > examinations/experience that he may not actually have, or in some
            > cases a generally higher or lower level of qualification than is
            > actually true. Except in very informal contexts, I would always
            leave
            > academic and professional qualifications in the original.
            >
            > Michael
            >

            I'm totally with Michael on this one. Degrees and qualifications are
            specific to each country. For example, an Irish leaving certificate
            biology qualification is very different to an A-level biology
            qualification and these are two countries that speak the same
            language...
            Moreover, as far as I know being an MUDr. does not entitle you to
            practice medicine as a doctor in the US. Therefore translating it as
            MD would in effect be a mistranslation, especially if the document was
            intended for a monolingual US reader.
            I always leave the original abbreviations and, where appropriate, I
            asterisk the qualification and subsequently insert a footnote like *
            ing. - qualification equivalent to Master of Science/Master of
            economcis in the Czech Republic. (depending in the institution that
            is awarding it). This has the advantage of letting the reader know
            what the person in question is qualified to do in their own country
            without giving them the impression that they have a US/UK/Irish-
            standard qualification (which could be better or worse...). Of course,
            the drawback is it can sometimes be quite cumbersome doing this...
            Coilin
          • James Kirchner
            ... I have MUDr s and their equivalents from other countries show up in my classes, and they are qualified to practice medicine here if they pass their state
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 3, 2005
              On Monday, October 3, 2005, at 06:41 PM, coilinoc wrote:

              > Moreover, as far as I know being an MUDr. does not entitle you to
              > practice medicine as a doctor in the US.  Therefore translating it as
              > MD would in effect be a mistranslation, especially if the document was
              > intended for a monolingual US reader.

              I have MUDr's and their equivalents from other countries show up in my
              classes, and they are qualified to practice medicine here if they pass
              their state medical board exams. I'm not an expert on it, but I don't
              think it's so much that the degree is different, but that the exams
              are. The ones in my classes appear to go through some ESL training,
              take their boards, and then practice medicine. So, for practical
              purposes, a MUDr. seems to be equivalent to an MD. The story I usually
              get is that a MUDr. is trained more low-tech (depending on the country)
              than the American MD is, and this is where the problems passing the
              board exams arises.

              Jamie


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