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Term:Doc. MUDr. CSc.

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  • Amir
    Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some names of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting the Doc. MUDr. CSc. etc. into
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 1, 2005
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      Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some names
      of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting the "Doc.
      MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor .... MD,
      PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
      translate?

      TIA Amir
    • kzgafas
      I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc as PhD. (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as international language,
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 1, 2005
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        I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc as PhD.
        (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
        international language, then titles should be standardized (translated
        into English) for the sake of international communication.
        Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the context.

        K.

        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
        > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some names
        > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting the "Doc.
        > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor .... MD,
        > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
        > translate?
        >
        > TIA Amir
      • James Kirchner
        You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially rendered as Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D. I also happen to have known in my life a Joe Shmoe, M.D.,
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 1, 2005
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          You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially rendered
          as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my life a
          "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr." There is
          nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and other
          things, as far as I know.

          There is also the problem of excessive titles used in Czech that have
          to be trimmed down for English, so that they won't sound comical. I
          once saw a Czech man's name rendered as something to the effect of "Dr.
          Prof. Ing. Jan Hajzlík, CSc." Translating all these titles into
          English would produce an absolutely ridiculous impression, and only the
          highest, most prestigious one should be used. In fact, there's
          currently a popular series of novels in English that makes fun of this
          phenomenon of serial academic titles. The characters are European
          intellectuals, and the main protagonist is "Prof. Dr. Dr. von Igelfeld"
          and his mentor, if I have it right, is "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr. Vogelsang".

          The other problem is what to do about titles that don't exist in
          English. I generally leave "Ing." out, because 99 percent of
          English-speaking readers don't know what it means. A couple of times
          I've done pieces where the inzenyrs themselves got upset with this and
          insisted the title nonetheless precede their names. I said something
          to the effect of, "Okay, but people here are going to think that most
          Czech men are named Ignac." Life imitates humor, and a year or two
          later I met some intelligent, cultured anglophones who really had
          assumed that "Ing." was the abbreviation of the men's Christian name
          and that their real first name was their middle name.

          And whatever you do, if you're translating from Hungarian into English,
          don't write the guy's name as "Shmoe Joe Professor Doctor Mister". :-)

          Jamie

          On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 05:48 PM, kzgafas wrote:

          > I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc as PhD.
          > (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
          > international language, then titles should be standardized (translated
          > into English) for the sake of international communication.
          > Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the context. 
          >
          > K.
          >
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
          > > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some names
          > > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting the "Doc.
          > > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor .... MD,
          > > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
          > > translate?
          > >
          > > TIA Amir
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Czechlist resources:
          > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          <image.tiff>
          >
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > +  Visit your group "Czechlist" on the web.
          >  
          > +  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >  Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >  
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • kzgafas
          Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I would call as an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship . :-) K. ... rendered ... life a
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 2, 2005
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            Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I
            would call as "an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship". :-)

            K.

            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
            wrote:
            > You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially
            rendered
            > as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my
            life a
            > "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr."
            There is
            > nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and
            other
            > things, as far as I know.
            >
            > There is also the problem of excessive titles used in Czech that
            have
            > to be trimmed down for English, so that they won't sound comical.
            I
            > once saw a Czech man's name rendered as something to the effect
            of "Dr.
            > Prof. Ing. Jan Hajzlík, CSc." Translating all these titles into
            > English would produce an absolutely ridiculous impression, and
            only the
            > highest, most prestigious one should be used. In fact, there's
            > currently a popular series of novels in English that makes fun of
            this
            > phenomenon of serial academic titles. The characters are European
            > intellectuals, and the main protagonist is "Prof. Dr. Dr. von
            Igelfeld"
            > and his mentor, if I have it right, is "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr.
            Vogelsang".
            >
            > The other problem is what to do about titles that don't exist in
            > English. I generally leave "Ing." out, because 99 percent of
            > English-speaking readers don't know what it means. A couple of
            times
            > I've done pieces where the inzenyrs themselves got upset with this
            and
            > insisted the title nonetheless precede their names. I said
            something
            > to the effect of, "Okay, but people here are going to think that
            most
            > Czech men are named Ignac." Life imitates humor, and a year or
            two
            > later I met some intelligent, cultured anglophones who really had
            > assumed that "Ing." was the abbreviation of the men's Christian
            name
            > and that their real first name was their middle name.
            >
            > And whatever you do, if you're translating from Hungarian into
            English,
            > don't write the guy's name as "Shmoe Joe Professor Doctor
            Mister". :-)
            >
            > Jamie
            >
            > On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 05:48 PM, kzgafas wrote:
            >
            > > I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc
            as PhD.
            > > (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
            > > international language, then titles should be standardized
            (translated
            > > into English) for the sake of international communication.
            > > Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the
            context. 
            > >
            > > K.
            > >
            > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
            > > > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some
            names
            > > > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting
            the "Doc.
            > > > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor ....
            MD,
            > > > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
            > > > translate?
            > > >
            > > > TIA Amir
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Czechlist resources:
            > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > <image.tiff>
            > >
            > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > >
            > > +  Visit your group "Czechlist" on the web.
            > >  
            > > +  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > >  Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > >  
            > > +  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            > >
            > >
            > <image.tiff>
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Terminus Technicus
            I think I m going to defend Jamie here (alth there were/are times I wouldn t hesitate to do the exact opposite...) I don t see the point of flashing all those
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 2, 2005
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              I think I'm going to defend Jamie here (alth' there were/are times I
              wouldn't hesitate to do the exact opposite...)

              I don't see the point of flashing all those things in front and behind one's
              name in Czech (I do have two potential ones I could use if I wanted, in
              fact, I learned to use at least one when dealing with "urady" and doctors,
              don't ask me why, but it really does make a difference)... and trying to
              force them on Eng native speakers where they have no meaning is pure
              Czenglish...

              Is it only us and German-speaking countries who are so obsessive about these
              things? (could have something to do with the old C&K then)..

              Come on, Kostas, if Czech was a global language, or even if it isn't, we
              wouldn't be happy about someone literaly translating things that don't exist
              in Czech culture/life/usage... and insist on them being there even when told
              it makes the sentence/document sound stupid... can't think of an example
              right now, but I'm sure there would be plenty...

              Interestingly enough, we've just submitted a translation of a dodgy
              banking/financial group whose ten basic big shots present on every Bod and
              Supervisory board all had three tittles to their name, and two (!) even used
              jr. behind their name (as if the possibility of confusing "Mgr. Ing. Jan
              Krakora Dr. Sc., MBA" with anyone else in his family wasn't pretty damn thin
              as it is...) - the translator (Brit Eng native) decided to do a clean cut
              and dropped EVERY single title, I must admit the list of names in the target
              segments looked very unimpressive all of a sudden, I must be sub-consciously
              indoctrinated :) I'm expecting to have to do some explaining (to the now
              "title-less" bankres, and perhaps the website content people as well)
              soon...

              I'm all in favour of dropping here, unless the text is actually about
              someone's academic achievements, or the dropping would change its meaning in
              any way, of course, but I personally don't need to know if the rich bastard
              who buys a new Porsche every other year using what I pay his company for
              keeping MY money had previously earned/purchased some odd-sounding and
              ill-combined collection of titles...

              ... and yes, (Petr, was it?) I do think it's another Commie relic (unless of
              course it does go back to the old Empire)

              Ing. Matej







              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "kzgafas" <kzgafas@...>
              To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 3:01 PM
              Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Term:Doc. MUDr. CSc.


              Such explanation of titles is an interesting example of phenomena I
              would call as "an abusive stage of cultural ambassadorship". :-)

              K.

              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
              wrote:
              > You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially
              rendered
              > as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my
              life a
              > "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr."
              There is
              > nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and
              other
              > things, as far as I know.
              >
              > There is also the problem of excessive titles used in Czech that
              have
              > to be trimmed down for English, so that they won't sound comical.
              I
              > once saw a Czech man's name rendered as something to the effect
              of "Dr.
              > Prof. Ing. Jan Hajzlík, CSc." Translating all these titles into
              > English would produce an absolutely ridiculous impression, and
              only the
              > highest, most prestigious one should be used. In fact, there's
              > currently a popular series of novels in English that makes fun of
              this
              > phenomenon of serial academic titles. The characters are European
              > intellectuals, and the main protagonist is "Prof. Dr. Dr. von
              Igelfeld"
              > and his mentor, if I have it right, is "Prof. Dr. Dr. Dr.
              Vogelsang".
              >
              > The other problem is what to do about titles that don't exist in
              > English. I generally leave "Ing." out, because 99 percent of
              > English-speaking readers don't know what it means. A couple of
              times
              > I've done pieces where the inzenyrs themselves got upset with this
              and
              > insisted the title nonetheless precede their names. I said
              something
              > to the effect of, "Okay, but people here are going to think that
              most
              > Czech men are named Ignac." Life imitates humor, and a year or
              two
              > later I met some intelligent, cultured anglophones who really had
              > assumed that "Ing." was the abbreviation of the men's Christian
              name
              > and that their real first name was their middle name.
              >
              > And whatever you do, if you're translating from Hungarian into
              English,
              > don't write the guy's name as "Shmoe Joe Professor Doctor
              Mister". :-)
              >
              > Jamie
              >
              > On Saturday, October 1, 2005, at 05:48 PM, kzgafas wrote:
              >
              > > I do not see anything stupid in translating MUDr as MD and CSc
              as PhD.
              > > (Jan Novak, M.D., Ph.D.) I think if we agree on the English as
              > > international language, then titles should be standardized
              (translated
              > > into English) for the sake of international communication.
              > > Even Doc. may well fit with Prof., but it depends on the
              context.
              > >
              > > K.
              > >
              > > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Amir" <amir.z@s...> wrote:
              > > > Hi .. I am translating a discharge report, which contains some
              names
              > > > of the doctors. I feel quite uncomfortable about rewriting
              the "Doc.
              > > > MUDr. CSc." etc. into something like "associate professor ....
              MD,
              > > > PhD" - sounds quite stupid to me. Should I leave it as it is or
              > > > translate?
              > > >
              > > > TIA Amir
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Czechlist resources:
              > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > <image.tiff>
              > >
              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >
              > > + Visit your group "Czechlist" on the web.
              > >
              > > + To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > Czechlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > + Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              > >
              > >
              > <image.tiff>
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              Czechlist resources:
              http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation













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            • Michael Gmail
              I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries are based on different qualifications, and translating them could lead the reader to
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 3, 2005
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                I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries
                are based on different qualifications, and "translating" them could
                lead the reader to believe that an individual has specific training/
                examinations/experience that he may not actually have, or in some
                cases a generally higher or lower level of qualification than is
                actually true. Except in very informal contexts, I would always leave
                academic and professional qualifications in the original.

                Michael

                On Oct 1, 2005, at 5:52 PM, James Kirchner wrote:

                > You sometimes do find people in the US with names officially rendered
                > as "Joe Shmoe, M.D., Ph.D." I also happen to have known in my life a
                > "Joe Shmoe, M.D., J.D.", which would mean he's "MUDr. JUDr." There is
                > nothing wrong with translating MUDr. as MD and JUDr. as JD, and other
                > things, as far as I know.
                >

                --

                Ausfuhrbestimmungen sind Erklärungen zu den Erklärungen, mit denen
                man eine Erklärung erklärt.
                (Protokoll im Wirtschaftsministerium)
              • coilinoc
                ... leave ... I m totally with Michael on this one. Degrees and qualifications are specific to each country. For example, an Irish leaving certificate
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 3, 2005
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                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Gmail <mgrant@g...> wrote:
                  > I have to disagree here. Degrees and titles in different countries
                  > are based on different qualifications, and "translating" them could
                  > lead the reader to believe that an individual has specific training/
                  > examinations/experience that he may not actually have, or in some
                  > cases a generally higher or lower level of qualification than is
                  > actually true. Except in very informal contexts, I would always
                  leave
                  > academic and professional qualifications in the original.
                  >
                  > Michael
                  >

                  I'm totally with Michael on this one. Degrees and qualifications are
                  specific to each country. For example, an Irish leaving certificate
                  biology qualification is very different to an A-level biology
                  qualification and these are two countries that speak the same
                  language...
                  Moreover, as far as I know being an MUDr. does not entitle you to
                  practice medicine as a doctor in the US. Therefore translating it as
                  MD would in effect be a mistranslation, especially if the document was
                  intended for a monolingual US reader.
                  I always leave the original abbreviations and, where appropriate, I
                  asterisk the qualification and subsequently insert a footnote like *
                  ing. - qualification equivalent to Master of Science/Master of
                  economcis in the Czech Republic. (depending in the institution that
                  is awarding it). This has the advantage of letting the reader know
                  what the person in question is qualified to do in their own country
                  without giving them the impression that they have a US/UK/Irish-
                  standard qualification (which could be better or worse...). Of course,
                  the drawback is it can sometimes be quite cumbersome doing this...
                  Coilin
                • James Kirchner
                  ... I have MUDr s and their equivalents from other countries show up in my classes, and they are qualified to practice medicine here if they pass their state
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 3, 2005
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                    On Monday, October 3, 2005, at 06:41 PM, coilinoc wrote:

                    > Moreover, as far as I know being an MUDr. does not entitle you to
                    > practice medicine as a doctor in the US.  Therefore translating it as
                    > MD would in effect be a mistranslation, especially if the document was
                    > intended for a monolingual US reader.

                    I have MUDr's and their equivalents from other countries show up in my
                    classes, and they are qualified to practice medicine here if they pass
                    their state medical board exams. I'm not an expert on it, but I don't
                    think it's so much that the degree is different, but that the exams
                    are. The ones in my classes appear to go through some ESL training,
                    take their boards, and then practice medicine. So, for practical
                    purposes, a MUDr. seems to be equivalent to an MD. The story I usually
                    get is that a MUDr. is trained more low-tech (depending on the country)
                    than the American MD is, and this is where the problems passing the
                    board exams arises.

                    Jamie


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