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Re: [Czechlist] TERM: Zaklínání železa

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  • Michael Gmail
    ... Is there any context or hint as to what the composer actually had in mind? Why would someone curse iron? The element, or a specific batch of iron, or...?
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
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      On Aug 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Jarda wrote:

      > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
      > Czech "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that
      > "Curse upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially
      > opinions from native speakers of English.TIA.

      Is there any context or hint as to what the composer actually had in
      mind? Why would someone curse iron? The element, or a specific batch
      of iron, or...? Is this a magical curse, or just strong language, or...?

      In any case, I would understand 'curse' as 'zakleti' rather than
      'zaklinani' and consider using 'cursing' for the latter. Maybe
      'Cursing Iron', although there it's ambiguous whether it's the iron
      being cursed or doing the cursing. Or 'Cursing the Iron', although
      that would be wrong if the intent is a universal curse on the metal.
      Not that it makes much sense either way....

      Michael

      --
      <http://globalocal.blogspot.com>


      It's not cryptic, it's evocative.
    • melvyn.geo
      ... Czech Zaklínání ¾eleza (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that Curse upon Iron is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from native
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
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        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jarda" <jaroslav.hejzlar@t...> wrote:
        > Hi, dear listmates!
        > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
        Czech "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse
        upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from
        native speakers of English.TIA.


        As far as I can make out on the search engines, "Curse upon Iron"
        seems to be a pretty common translation of Veljo Tormis's Estonian
        choral work, Raua needmine. Articles are used occasionally but I
        would not say they are necessary for a title in isolation. Looks OK to
        me and I can't find any viable alternatives.

        Sounds like a fun little number if you are into shamanistic
        incantations, which I most definitely am. How does it go? Can you
        dum-di-dum it for us?

        M.
      • Milan Condak
        Informace o zmenach mezi verzemi 5.0 a 5.1 http://www.condak.net/news/50_51/cs/00.html Od dubna 2005 poradam kazdy ctvrtek setkani prekladatelu (venuji se jim,
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
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          Informace o zmenach mezi verzemi 5.0 a 5.1

          http://www.condak.net/news/50_51/cs/00.html

          Od dubna 2005 poradam kazdy ctvrtek setkani prekladatelu
          (venuji se jim, pokud se nedostavi zajemce o skoleni Wordfastu)

          http://www.condak.net/nakopecku/cs/inzeratp.html

          S pozdravem
          Milan
        • James Kirchner
          ... Why 2. pad for iron . Wouldn t it in that case be The Curse of Iron ? I could think of people on a chain gang or in a hot smelter who would consider
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
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            On Saturday, August 6, 2005, at 11:35 AM, Jarda wrote:

            > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in Czech
            > "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse upon
            > Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from native
            > speakers of English.TIA.

            Why 2. pad for "iron". Wouldn't it in that case be "The Curse of Iron"?

            I could think of people on a chain gang or in a hot smelter who would
            consider iron to be a continuous curse.

            Please instruct me, guys.

            Jamie
          • spektrum2002
            Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem vzdycky dojem, ze curse je prokleti , tedy prani, aby se tomu prokletemu stalo neco
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 7, 2005
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              Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem
              vzdycky dojem, ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
              prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych spise chapal jako
              prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby neskodilo.
              Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat" celou radu
              vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.
              Petr Adamek
              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@d...> wrote:
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jarda" <jaroslav.hejzlar@t...> wrote:

              > > Hi, dear listmates!
              > > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
              > Czech "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse
              > upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from
              > native speakers of English.TIA.
              >
              >
              > As far as I can make out on the search engines, "Curse upon Iron"
              > seems to be a pretty common translation of Veljo Tormis's Estonian
              > choral work, Raua needmine. Articles are used occasionally but I
              > would not say they are necessary for a title in isolation. Looks OK to
              > me and I can't find any viable alternatives.
              >
              > Sounds like a fun little number if you are into shamanistic
              > incantations, which I most definitely am. How does it go? Can you
              > dum-di-dum it for us?
              >
              > M.
            • Jarda
              ... These are exactly the two reasons why I was asking. Nevertheless, since it is really the most frequent translation of Veljo Tormis s Raua needmine and
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 7, 2005
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                Petr Adamek wrote:

                > Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti
                > anglictiny, ale mel jsem vzdycky dojem,
                > ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
                > prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych
                > spise chapal jako prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano
                > nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby neskodilo.
                > Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat"
                > celou radu vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.

                These are exactly the two reasons why I was asking. Nevertheless,
                since it is really the most frequent translation of Veljo Tormis's Raua
                needmine and since Melvyn says he finds it OK
                and cannot find any other viable alternatives, I will use this,
                although it seemed a bit suspicious to me at first.

                Thanks to Michael, Jamie, Melvyn and Petr very much.
                Best regards,

                Jarda
              • James Kirchner
                ... A look at Fronek shows you re right. Zaklinat , according to Fronek, can involve activities that remove curses, rather than putting them on someone. One
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 7, 2005
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                  On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 03:13 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                  > Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem
                  > vzdycky dojem, ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
                  > prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych spise chapal jako
                  > prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby
                  > neskodilo.
                  > Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat" celou radu
                  > vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.

                  A look at Fronek shows you're right. "Zaklinat", according to Fronek,
                  can involve activities that remove curses, rather than putting them on
                  someone. One meaning is actually "exorcize", so that's quite the
                  opposite of putting a curse on someone. Some meanings involve putting
                  the whammy on someone, and not exactly a curse, per se. I think a more
                  apt translation of "zaklinat", then would be to put a hex on someone,
                  or a spell. In fact, if you search "hex" at Thesaurus.com, you get
                  synonyms like those under the "zaklinat" entry in Fronek.

                  So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
                  common) be one of the following?

                  Casting a Spell on Iron
                  A Hex on Iron

                  A curse is always evil. A hex or a spell doesn't have to be.

                  Jamie


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • melvyn.geo
                  ... OK, if we bracket off Jarda s original problem, I d be willing to believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these might well carry the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
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                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:

                    > So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
                    > common) be one of the following?
                    >
                    > Casting a Spell on Iron
                    > A Hex on Iron

                    OK, if we bracket off Jarda's original problem, I'd be willing to
                    believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these
                    might well carry the magical, story-bookish feel of 'zaklinani' better
                    than 'curse'.

                    :-) However, I have found that the text of Raua needmine (Curse Upon
                    Iron) is based on Runo IX of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala,
                    translated into Estonian.

                    www3.sympatico.ca/alan.teder/GuildGMCD7246.htm

                    Runo VIII Väinämöinen, on his journey, finds the daughter of Louhi
                    sitting on a rainbow weaving, and makes love to her. In trying to
                    accomplish the tasks she sets him, he wounds himself severely, and
                    drives away till he finds an old man who promises to stanch the blood.

                    Runo IX The old man heals Väinämöinen by relating the origin of Iron,
                    and by salving his wounds.

                    http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/kalevala.htm


                    In Runo IX of the Kalevala we read:

                    Curses on thee, cruel iron,
                    Curses on the steel thou givest,
                    Curses on thee, tongue of evil,
                    Cursed be thy life forever!

                    http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune09.htm

                    Great stuff. Now you know what to buy me for my birthday.

                    Melvyn
                    Nothing is as irritating as the fellow who chats pleasantly while he's
                    overcharging you.
                    - Kin Hubbard
                  • Jarda
                    Oh, Melvyn! Your ability in googling is astounding! My greatest admiration! Thanks for giving me the insight. Regards, Jarda ... From: melvyn.geo
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
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                      Oh, Melvyn!
                      Your ability in googling is astounding! My greatest admiration! Thanks for
                      giving me the insight.
                      Regards,
                      Jarda

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...>
                      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:39 PM
                      Subject: [Czechlist] Re: TERM: Zaklinani zeleza


                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:

                      > So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
                      > common) be one of the following?
                      >
                      > Casting a Spell on Iron
                      > A Hex on Iron

                      OK, if we bracket off Jarda's original problem, I'd be willing to
                      believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these
                      might well carry the magical, story-bookish feel of 'zaklinani' better
                      than 'curse'.

                      :-) However, I have found that the text of Raua needmine (Curse Upon
                      Iron) is based on Runo IX of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala,
                      translated into Estonian.

                      www3.sympatico.ca/alan.teder/GuildGMCD7246.htm

                      Runo VIII Väinämöinen, on his journey, finds the daughter of Louhi
                      sitting on a rainbow weaving, and makes love to her. In trying to
                      accomplish the tasks she sets him, he wounds himself severely, and
                      drives away till he finds an old man who promises to stanch the blood.

                      Runo IX The old man heals Väinämöinen by relating the origin of Iron,
                      and by salving his wounds.

                      http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/kalevala.htm


                      In Runo IX of the Kalevala we read:

                      Curses on thee, cruel iron,
                      Curses on the steel thou givest,
                      Curses on thee, tongue of evil,
                      Cursed be thy life forever!

                      http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune09.htm

                      Great stuff. Now you know what to buy me for my birthday.

                      Melvyn
                      Nothing is as irritating as the fellow who chats pleasantly while he's
                      overcharging you.
                      - Kin Hubbard





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