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TERM: Zaklínání železa

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  • Jarda
    Hi, dear listmates! How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in Czech Zaklínání ¾eleza (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that Curse
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
      Hi, dear listmates!
      How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in Czech "Zakl�n�n� �eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from native speakers of English.TIA.
      Best regards,
      Jarda


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Gmail
      ... Is there any context or hint as to what the composer actually had in mind? Why would someone curse iron? The element, or a specific batch of iron, or...?
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
        On Aug 6, 2005, at 10:35 AM, Jarda wrote:

        > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
        > Czech "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that
        > "Curse upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially
        > opinions from native speakers of English.TIA.

        Is there any context or hint as to what the composer actually had in
        mind? Why would someone curse iron? The element, or a specific batch
        of iron, or...? Is this a magical curse, or just strong language, or...?

        In any case, I would understand 'curse' as 'zakleti' rather than
        'zaklinani' and consider using 'cursing' for the latter. Maybe
        'Cursing Iron', although there it's ambiguous whether it's the iron
        being cursed or doing the cursing. Or 'Cursing the Iron', although
        that would be wrong if the intent is a universal curse on the metal.
        Not that it makes much sense either way....

        Michael

        --
        <http://globalocal.blogspot.com>


        It's not cryptic, it's evocative.
      • melvyn.geo
        ... Czech Zaklínání ¾eleza (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that Curse upon Iron is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from native
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jarda" <jaroslav.hejzlar@t...> wrote:
          > Hi, dear listmates!
          > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
          Czech "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse
          upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from
          native speakers of English.TIA.


          As far as I can make out on the search engines, "Curse upon Iron"
          seems to be a pretty common translation of Veljo Tormis's Estonian
          choral work, Raua needmine. Articles are used occasionally but I
          would not say they are necessary for a title in isolation. Looks OK to
          me and I can't find any viable alternatives.

          Sounds like a fun little number if you are into shamanistic
          incantations, which I most definitely am. How does it go? Can you
          dum-di-dum it for us?

          M.
        • Milan Condak
          Informace o zmenach mezi verzemi 5.0 a 5.1 http://www.condak.net/news/50_51/cs/00.html Od dubna 2005 poradam kazdy ctvrtek setkani prekladatelu (venuji se jim,
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
            Informace o zmenach mezi verzemi 5.0 a 5.1

            http://www.condak.net/news/50_51/cs/00.html

            Od dubna 2005 poradam kazdy ctvrtek setkani prekladatelu
            (venuji se jim, pokud se nedostavi zajemce o skoleni Wordfastu)

            http://www.condak.net/nakopecku/cs/inzeratp.html

            S pozdravem
            Milan
          • James Kirchner
            ... Why 2. pad for iron . Wouldn t it in that case be The Curse of Iron ? I could think of people on a chain gang or in a hot smelter who would consider
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 6, 2005
              On Saturday, August 6, 2005, at 11:35 AM, Jarda wrote:

              > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in Czech
              > "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse upon
              > Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from native
              > speakers of English.TIA.

              Why 2. pad for "iron". Wouldn't it in that case be "The Curse of Iron"?

              I could think of people on a chain gang or in a hot smelter who would
              consider iron to be a continuous curse.

              Please instruct me, guys.

              Jamie
            • spektrum2002
              Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem vzdycky dojem, ze curse je prokleti , tedy prani, aby se tomu prokletemu stalo neco
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 7, 2005
                Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem
                vzdycky dojem, ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
                prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych spise chapal jako
                prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby neskodilo.
                Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat" celou radu
                vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.
                Petr Adamek
                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@d...> wrote:
                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jarda" <jaroslav.hejzlar@t...> wrote:

                > > Hi, dear listmates!
                > > How would you translate the title of a piece of music called in
                > Czech "Zaklínání ¾eleza" (Zaklinani zeleza). Do you think that "Curse
                > upon Iron" is OK? I would highly appreciate especially opinions from
                > native speakers of English.TIA.
                >
                >
                > As far as I can make out on the search engines, "Curse upon Iron"
                > seems to be a pretty common translation of Veljo Tormis's Estonian
                > choral work, Raua needmine. Articles are used occasionally but I
                > would not say they are necessary for a title in isolation. Looks OK to
                > me and I can't find any viable alternatives.
                >
                > Sounds like a fun little number if you are into shamanistic
                > incantations, which I most definitely am. How does it go? Can you
                > dum-di-dum it for us?
                >
                > M.
              • Jarda
                ... These are exactly the two reasons why I was asking. Nevertheless, since it is really the most frequent translation of Veljo Tormis s Raua needmine and
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 7, 2005
                  Petr Adamek wrote:

                  > Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti
                  > anglictiny, ale mel jsem vzdycky dojem,
                  > ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
                  > prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych
                  > spise chapal jako prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano
                  > nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby neskodilo.
                  > Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat"
                  > celou radu vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.

                  These are exactly the two reasons why I was asking. Nevertheless,
                  since it is really the most frequent translation of Veljo Tormis's Raua
                  needmine and since Melvyn says he finds it OK
                  and cannot find any other viable alternatives, I will use this,
                  although it seemed a bit suspicious to me at first.

                  Thanks to Michael, Jamie, Melvyn and Petr very much.
                  Best regards,

                  Jarda
                • James Kirchner
                  ... A look at Fronek shows you re right. Zaklinat , according to Fronek, can involve activities that remove curses, rather than putting them on someone. One
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 7, 2005
                    On Sunday, August 7, 2005, at 03:13 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                    > Nemam samozrejme ten spravny cit pro jemnosti anglictiny, ale mel jsem
                    > vzdycky dojem, ze "curse" je "prokleti", tedy prani, aby se tomu
                    > prokletemu stalo neco zleho. "Zaklinani zeleza" bych spise chapal jako
                    > prani, aby bylo zelezo nadano nejakou kouzelnou moci nebo aby
                    > neskodilo.
                    > Jenom na okraj pozanmenavam, ze Fronek uvadi pro"zaklinat" celou radu
                    > vyrazu, ale "curse" mezi nimi neni.

                    A look at Fronek shows you're right. "Zaklinat", according to Fronek,
                    can involve activities that remove curses, rather than putting them on
                    someone. One meaning is actually "exorcize", so that's quite the
                    opposite of putting a curse on someone. Some meanings involve putting
                    the whammy on someone, and not exactly a curse, per se. I think a more
                    apt translation of "zaklinat", then would be to put a hex on someone,
                    or a spell. In fact, if you search "hex" at Thesaurus.com, you get
                    synonyms like those under the "zaklinat" entry in Fronek.

                    So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
                    common) be one of the following?

                    Casting a Spell on Iron
                    A Hex on Iron

                    A curse is always evil. A hex or a spell doesn't have to be.

                    Jamie


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • melvyn.geo
                    ... OK, if we bracket off Jarda s original problem, I d be willing to believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these might well carry the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:

                      > So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
                      > common) be one of the following?
                      >
                      > Casting a Spell on Iron
                      > A Hex on Iron

                      OK, if we bracket off Jarda's original problem, I'd be willing to
                      believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these
                      might well carry the magical, story-bookish feel of 'zaklinani' better
                      than 'curse'.

                      :-) However, I have found that the text of Raua needmine (Curse Upon
                      Iron) is based on Runo IX of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala,
                      translated into Estonian.

                      www3.sympatico.ca/alan.teder/GuildGMCD7246.htm

                      Runo VIII Väinämöinen, on his journey, finds the daughter of Louhi
                      sitting on a rainbow weaving, and makes love to her. In trying to
                      accomplish the tasks she sets him, he wounds himself severely, and
                      drives away till he finds an old man who promises to stanch the blood.

                      Runo IX The old man heals Väinämöinen by relating the origin of Iron,
                      and by salving his wounds.

                      http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/kalevala.htm


                      In Runo IX of the Kalevala we read:

                      Curses on thee, cruel iron,
                      Curses on the steel thou givest,
                      Curses on thee, tongue of evil,
                      Cursed be thy life forever!

                      http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune09.htm

                      Great stuff. Now you know what to buy me for my birthday.

                      Melvyn
                      Nothing is as irritating as the fellow who chats pleasantly while he's
                      overcharging you.
                      - Kin Hubbard
                    • Jarda
                      Oh, Melvyn! Your ability in googling is astounding! My greatest admiration! Thanks for giving me the insight. Regards, Jarda ... From: melvyn.geo
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 8, 2005
                        Oh, Melvyn!
                        Your ability in googling is astounding! My greatest admiration! Thanks for
                        giving me the insight.
                        Regards,
                        Jarda

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...>
                        To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 12:39 PM
                        Subject: [Czechlist] Re: TERM: Zaklinani zeleza


                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:

                        > So, would a more accurate translation (regardless of what is most
                        > common) be one of the following?
                        >
                        > Casting a Spell on Iron
                        > A Hex on Iron

                        OK, if we bracket off Jarda's original problem, I'd be willing to
                        believe (subject to confirmation by a native CZ speaker) that these
                        might well carry the magical, story-bookish feel of 'zaklinani' better
                        than 'curse'.

                        :-) However, I have found that the text of Raua needmine (Curse Upon
                        Iron) is based on Runo IX of the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala,
                        translated into Estonian.

                        www3.sympatico.ca/alan.teder/GuildGMCD7246.htm

                        Runo VIII Väinämöinen, on his journey, finds the daughter of Louhi
                        sitting on a rainbow weaving, and makes love to her. In trying to
                        accomplish the tasks she sets him, he wounds himself severely, and
                        drives away till he finds an old man who promises to stanch the blood.

                        Runo IX The old man heals Väinämöinen by relating the origin of Iron,
                        and by salving his wounds.

                        http://peacecountry0.tripod.com/kalevala.htm


                        In Runo IX of the Kalevala we read:

                        Curses on thee, cruel iron,
                        Curses on the steel thou givest,
                        Curses on thee, tongue of evil,
                        Cursed be thy life forever!

                        http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/kveng/kvrune09.htm

                        Great stuff. Now you know what to buy me for my birthday.

                        Melvyn
                        Nothing is as irritating as the fellow who chats pleasantly while he's
                        overcharging you.
                        - Kin Hubbard





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