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Re: THANKS: Zampach

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  • spektrum2002
    Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke b jako p a nemecke a jako o . Proto je v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce fotr (Vater) a pro truhlarsky stul ponk (Bank).
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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      Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
      v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
      stul "ponk" (Bank).
      Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
      poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
      jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
      das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
      jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".
      Take nas ucitelka nemciny nabadala, abychom predponu "ab-"
      vyslovovali "ap" (napriklad v "ablehnenen"), ale nevim jestli by to
      melo vseobecnou platnost.
      Petr Adamek
      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
      > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
      > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
      > [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
      > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
      >
      > Jamie
    • melvyn.geo
      ... Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after the local sandy
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, ing.Sárka Rubková <rubkova@l...> wrote:
        > Zampach je nejen v orlickych horach, ale taky na Sázave

        Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called
        Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after
        the local sandy brook:

        Sandbach "sandy stream or valley" – Sanbec dated to the Domesday Book
        and Sondbache dated to 1260. Also, Sandbeck "sandy brook" on p. 403,
        with Sandbec dated to 1148 and 1222.
        www.sca-caid.org/herald/minutes/2003/min0302.html

        These Saxons certainly got about. The Welsh (just down the road from
        Sandbach) call the English `Sas' to this day.

        M.
      • James Kirchner
        I m a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would trigger these
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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          I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
          between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
          trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

          On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

          > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
          > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
          > into
          > > [p]?  Purkmistr, etc.
          >
          > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
          > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
          > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
          > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
          > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
          > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

          Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
          assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
          sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
          yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
          to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
          word breaks.

          > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
          > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
          >
          > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
          > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
          > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
          > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
          > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
          > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
          > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
          > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
          > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
          > effort and "a lazy speaker."

          Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
          when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
          Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
          something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
          Bavarian, I'll bet).

          Jamie


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • James Kirchner
          ... This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in caught . I can t imagine
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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            On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:32 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

            > Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
            > v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
            > stul "ponk" (Bank).

            This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians
            pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in "caught". I
            can't imagine that Czechs would mistake the /a/ pronounced in Cologne
            or Hamburg for [o].

            > Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
            > poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
            > jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
            > das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
            > jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".

            I wonder if this is because Czechs lack aspiration in their /p/. If
            they "don't hear" the German aspiration, it's conceivable that they
            might have trouble hearing the difference between that and /b/. This
            would be a matter of what I call "hearing with an accent".

            I once used the expression "pop psychology" when talking to my
            department head in Marianske Lazne, and he thought I was talking about
            the mentality of people who hang around in pubs ([paps] in his speech).

            Jamie


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jan Culka
            No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say Wurscht (although the rule says st is pronunciated as scht when in the word beginning only). But with
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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              No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say "Wurscht" (although the
              rule says "st" is pronunciated as "scht" when in the word beginning only).
              But with "v", not "b".
              It is a mystery. Let´s reconcile with the fact that certain illogical
              effects appear sometimes.
              Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".
              Take into account please that "vur^t" is considered more literate that
              "bur^t" although both expressions are rather German than Czech.
              Honza


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
              To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [Czechlist] CHAT phonological changes (was Zampach)


              I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
              between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
              trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

              On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

              > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
              > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
              > into
              > > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.
              >
              > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
              > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
              > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
              > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
              > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
              > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

              Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
              assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
              sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
              yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
              to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
              word breaks.

              > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
              > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
              >
              > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
              > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
              > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
              > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
              > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
              > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
              > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
              > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
              > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
              > effort and "a lazy speaker."

              Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
              when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
              Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
              something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
              Bavarian, I'll bet).

              Jamie


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • Roman Dergam
              ... Urcite. Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000): Poèet výskytù: 370890 ... Poèet výskytù: 1622 ... Roman Dergam
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                V Út, 07. 06. 2005 v 14:33, Jan Culka píše:

                > Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".

                Urcite.

                Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000):

                Počet výskytů: 370890
                > Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"

                Počet výskytů: 1622
                > Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                Roman Dergam
              • James Kirchner
                ... That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks. How do you access this corpus? Jamie
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                  On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:

                  > Počet výskytů: 370890
                  >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                  >
                  > Počet výskytů: 1622
                  >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                  That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.

                  How do you access this corpus?

                  Jamie
                • Roman Dergam
                  Hello, look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and use it from
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
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                    Hello,

                    look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or
                    register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and
                    use it from your computer (for more sophisticated searches). Great
                    stuff.

                    Roman Dergam



                    V St, 08. 06. 2005 v 02:21, James Kirchner píše:
                    > On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:
                    >
                    > > Počet výskytů: 370890
                    > >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                    > >
                    > > Počet výskytů: 1622
                    > >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"
                    >
                    > That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.
                    >
                    > How do you access this corpus?
                    >
                    > Jamie
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Czechlist resources:
                    > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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