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CHAT phonological changes (was Zampach)

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  • Beata Rodlingova
    Both of these are likely to be connected with the place of articulation of these sounds. Sounds which share the majority of aspects of articulation (place,
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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      Both of these are likely to be connected with the place of
      articulation of these sounds. Sounds which share the majority of
      aspects of articulation (place, way, voicing) but differ in one of
      them tend to replace

      > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
      > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
      into
      > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.

      "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
      is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
      among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
      Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
      between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
      as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

      And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
      > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

      Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
      share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
      voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
      quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
      (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
      requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
      the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
      that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
      often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
      effort and "a lazy speaker."

      HTH
      Beata
    • spektrum2002
      Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke b jako p a nemecke a jako o . Proto je v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce fotr (Vater) a pro truhlarsky stul ponk (Bank).
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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        Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
        v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
        stul "ponk" (Bank).
        Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
        poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
        jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
        das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
        jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".
        Take nas ucitelka nemciny nabadala, abychom predponu "ab-"
        vyslovovali "ap" (napriklad v "ablehnenen"), ale nevim jestli by to
        melo vseobecnou platnost.
        Petr Adamek
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
        > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
        > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
        > [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
        > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
        >
        > Jamie
      • melvyn.geo
        ... Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after the local sandy
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, ing.Sárka Rubková <rubkova@l...> wrote:
          > Zampach je nejen v orlickych horach, ale taky na Sázave

          Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called
          Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after
          the local sandy brook:

          Sandbach "sandy stream or valley" – Sanbec dated to the Domesday Book
          and Sondbache dated to 1260. Also, Sandbeck "sandy brook" on p. 403,
          with Sandbec dated to 1148 and 1222.
          www.sca-caid.org/herald/minutes/2003/min0302.html

          These Saxons certainly got about. The Welsh (just down the road from
          Sandbach) call the English `Sas' to this day.

          M.
        • James Kirchner
          I m a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would trigger these
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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            I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
            between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
            trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

            On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

            > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
            > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
            > into
            > > [p]?  Purkmistr, etc.
            >
            > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
            > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
            > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
            > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
            > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
            > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

            Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
            assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
            sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
            yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
            to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
            word breaks.

            > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
            > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
            >
            > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
            > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
            > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
            > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
            > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
            > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
            > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
            > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
            > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
            > effort and "a lazy speaker."

            Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
            when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
            Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
            something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
            Bavarian, I'll bet).

            Jamie


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Kirchner
            ... This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in caught . I can t imagine
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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              On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:32 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

              > Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
              > v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
              > stul "ponk" (Bank).

              This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians
              pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in "caught". I
              can't imagine that Czechs would mistake the /a/ pronounced in Cologne
              or Hamburg for [o].

              > Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
              > poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
              > jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
              > das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
              > jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".

              I wonder if this is because Czechs lack aspiration in their /p/. If
              they "don't hear" the German aspiration, it's conceivable that they
              might have trouble hearing the difference between that and /b/. This
              would be a matter of what I call "hearing with an accent".

              I once used the expression "pop psychology" when talking to my
              department head in Marianske Lazne, and he thought I was talking about
              the mentality of people who hang around in pubs ([paps] in his speech).

              Jamie


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jan Culka
              No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say Wurscht (although the rule says st is pronunciated as scht when in the word beginning only). But with
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say "Wurscht" (although the
                rule says "st" is pronunciated as "scht" when in the word beginning only).
                But with "v", not "b".
                It is a mystery. Let´s reconcile with the fact that certain illogical
                effects appear sometimes.
                Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".
                Take into account please that "vur^t" is considered more literate that
                "bur^t" although both expressions are rather German than Czech.
                Honza


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:10 PM
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] CHAT phonological changes (was Zampach)


                I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
                between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
                trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

                On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

                > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
                > into
                > > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.
                >
                > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
                > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
                > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
                > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
                > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
                > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

                Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
                assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
                sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
                yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
                to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
                word breaks.

                > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
                >
                > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
                > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
                > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
                > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
                > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
                > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
                > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
                > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
                > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
                > effort and "a lazy speaker."

                Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
                when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
                Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
                something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
                Bavarian, I'll bet).

                Jamie


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Roman Dergam
                ... Urcite. Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000): Poèet výskytù: 370890 ... Poèet výskytù: 1622 ... Roman Dergam
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                  V Út, 07. 06. 2005 v 14:33, Jan Culka píše:

                  > Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".

                  Urcite.

                  Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000):

                  Počet výskytů: 370890
                  > Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"

                  Počet výskytů: 1622
                  > Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                  Roman Dergam
                • James Kirchner
                  ... That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks. How do you access this corpus? Jamie
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                    On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:

                    > Počet výskytů: 370890
                    >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                    >
                    > Počet výskytů: 1622
                    >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                    That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.

                    How do you access this corpus?

                    Jamie
                  • Roman Dergam
                    Hello, look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and use it from
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
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                      Hello,

                      look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or
                      register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and
                      use it from your computer (for more sophisticated searches). Great
                      stuff.

                      Roman Dergam



                      V St, 08. 06. 2005 v 02:21, James Kirchner píše:
                      > On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:
                      >
                      > > Počet výskytů: 370890
                      > >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                      > >
                      > > Počet výskytů: 1622
                      > >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"
                      >
                      > That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.
                      >
                      > How do you access this corpus?
                      >
                      > Jamie
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Czechlist resources:
                      > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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