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Re: [Czechlist] THANKS: Zampach

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  • Jan Culka
    These b p, g k, z^ s^, etc. are influenced by Austrian pronunciation of German (you certainly know that the Czechs lived under and with the Austrians
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 7 3:52 AM
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      These b > p, g > k, z^ > s^, etc. are influenced by Austrian pronunciation
      of German (you certainly know that the Czechs lived under and with the
      Austrians some 300 years).
      And in addition, it is easier to say e.g. z^lap than y^lab, which correct in
      literary Czech. We were taught that this phenomenon does not appear in
      literary English - how is it with spoken or dialect English?
      Honza



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:28 PM
      Subject: [Czechlist] THANKS: Zampach


      Thank you, Petr, Petr, Honza and Sarka. My student, née Zampach
      (without -ová) will be pleased to have this information.

      By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
      German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
      [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
      into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

      Jamie



      Czechlist resources:
      http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









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    • Jan Culka
      What is Zampach´s christian name? My colleague Mojmir Zampach has 3 or 4 children .... they may be between 20 and 30. Honza ... From: James Kirchner
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 7 4:02 AM
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        What is Zampach´s christian name? My colleague Mojmir Zampach has 3 or 4
        children .... they may be between 20 and 30.
        Honza


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
        To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:28 PM
        Subject: [Czechlist] THANKS: Zampach


        Thank you, Petr, Petr, Honza and Sarka. My student, née Zampach
        (without -ová) will be pleased to have this information.

        By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
        German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
        [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
        into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

        Jamie



        Czechlist resources:
        http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Beata Rodlingova
        Both of these are likely to be connected with the place of articulation of these sounds. Sounds which share the majority of aspects of articulation (place,
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 7 4:30 AM
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          Both of these are likely to be connected with the place of
          articulation of these sounds. Sounds which share the majority of
          aspects of articulation (place, way, voicing) but differ in one of
          them tend to replace

          > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
          > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
          into
          > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.

          "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
          is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
          among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
          Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
          between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
          as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

          And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
          > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

          Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
          share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
          voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
          quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
          (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
          requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
          the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
          that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
          often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
          effort and "a lazy speaker."

          HTH
          Beata
        • spektrum2002
          Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke b jako p a nemecke a jako o . Proto je v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce fotr (Vater) a pro truhlarsky stul ponk (Bank).
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 7 4:32 AM
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            Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
            v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
            stul "ponk" (Bank).
            Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
            poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
            jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
            das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
            jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".
            Take nas ucitelka nemciny nabadala, abychom predponu "ab-"
            vyslovovali "ap" (napriklad v "ablehnenen"), ale nevim jestli by to
            melo vseobecnou platnost.
            Petr Adamek
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
            > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
            > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
            > [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
            > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
            >
            > Jamie
          • melvyn.geo
            ... Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after the local sandy
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 7 4:53 AM
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              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, ing.Sárka Rubková <rubkova@l...> wrote:
              > Zampach je nejen v orlickych horach, ale taky na Sázave

              Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called
              Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after
              the local sandy brook:

              Sandbach "sandy stream or valley" – Sanbec dated to the Domesday Book
              and Sondbache dated to 1260. Also, Sandbeck "sandy brook" on p. 403,
              with Sandbec dated to 1148 and 1222.
              www.sca-caid.org/herald/minutes/2003/min0302.html

              These Saxons certainly got about. The Welsh (just down the road from
              Sandbach) call the English `Sas' to this day.

              M.
            • James Kirchner
              I m a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would trigger these
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 7 5:10 AM
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                I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
                between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
                trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

                On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

                > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
                > into
                > > [p]?  Purkmistr, etc.
                >
                > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
                > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
                > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
                > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
                > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
                > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

                Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
                assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
                sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
                yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
                to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
                word breaks.

                > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
                >
                > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
                > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
                > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
                > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
                > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
                > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
                > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
                > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
                > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
                > effort and "a lazy speaker."

                Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
                when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
                Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
                something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
                Bavarian, I'll bet).

                Jamie


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Kirchner
                ... This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in caught . I can t imagine
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 7 5:18 AM
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                  On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:32 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                  > Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
                  > v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
                  > stul "ponk" (Bank).

                  This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians
                  pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in "caught". I
                  can't imagine that Czechs would mistake the /a/ pronounced in Cologne
                  or Hamburg for [o].

                  > Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
                  > poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
                  > jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
                  > das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
                  > jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".

                  I wonder if this is because Czechs lack aspiration in their /p/. If
                  they "don't hear" the German aspiration, it's conceivable that they
                  might have trouble hearing the difference between that and /b/. This
                  would be a matter of what I call "hearing with an accent".

                  I once used the expression "pop psychology" when talking to my
                  department head in Marianske Lazne, and he thought I was talking about
                  the mentality of people who hang around in pubs ([paps] in his speech).

                  Jamie


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jan Culka
                  No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say Wurscht (although the rule says st is pronunciated as scht when in the word beginning only). But with
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 7 5:33 AM
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                    No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say "Wurscht" (although the
                    rule says "st" is pronunciated as "scht" when in the word beginning only).
                    But with "v", not "b".
                    It is a mystery. Let´s reconcile with the fact that certain illogical
                    effects appear sometimes.
                    Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".
                    Take into account please that "vur^t" is considered more literate that
                    "bur^t" although both expressions are rather German than Czech.
                    Honza


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                    To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:10 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] CHAT phonological changes (was Zampach)


                    I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
                    between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
                    trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

                    On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

                    > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                    > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
                    > into
                    > > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.
                    >
                    > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
                    > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
                    > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
                    > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
                    > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
                    > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

                    Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
                    assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
                    sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
                    yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
                    to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
                    word breaks.

                    > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                    > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
                    >
                    > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
                    > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
                    > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
                    > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
                    > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
                    > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
                    > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
                    > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
                    > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
                    > effort and "a lazy speaker."

                    Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
                    when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
                    Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
                    something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
                    Bavarian, I'll bet).

                    Jamie


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    Czechlist resources:
                    http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Roman Dergam
                    ... Urcite. Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000): Poèet výskytù: 370890 ... Poèet výskytù: 1622 ... Roman Dergam
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 7 7:23 AM
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                      V Út, 07. 06. 2005 v 14:33, Jan Culka píše:

                      > Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".

                      Urcite.

                      Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000):

                      Počet výskytů: 370890
                      > Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"

                      Počet výskytů: 1622
                      > Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                      Roman Dergam
                    • James Kirchner
                      ... That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks. How do you access this corpus? Jamie
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 7 5:21 PM
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                        On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:

                        > Počet výskytů: 370890
                        >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                        >
                        > Počet výskytů: 1622
                        >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                        That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.

                        How do you access this corpus?

                        Jamie
                      • Roman Dergam
                        Hello, look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and use it from
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 8 2:21 AM
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                          Hello,

                          look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or
                          register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and
                          use it from your computer (for more sophisticated searches). Great
                          stuff.

                          Roman Dergam



                          V St, 08. 06. 2005 v 02:21, James Kirchner píše:
                          > On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:
                          >
                          > > Počet výskytů: 370890
                          > >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                          > >
                          > > Počet výskytů: 1622
                          > >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"
                          >
                          > That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.
                          >
                          > How do you access this corpus?
                          >
                          > Jamie
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Czechlist resources:
                          > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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