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[Czechlist] FUN: The Beauty of Literal Translations

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  • Petr Veselý
    Simply ingenious. Enjoy! http://pes.eunet.cz/clanky/2005/05/43679_10_0_0.html Petr
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 3, 2005
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    • James Kirchner
      Hey, guys! Does the Czech surname Zampach have any identifiable meaning? Jamie
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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        Hey, guys!

        Does the Czech surname Zampach have any identifiable meaning?

        Jamie
      • Petr Veselý
        Hi Jamie, its also a name of a village and a castle in Orlicke hory. The etymology of the castle s name is explained here
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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          Hi Jamie,

          its also a name of a village and a castle in Orlicke hory.

          The etymology of the castle's name is explained here

          http://www.volny.cz/uspza/cedule/Lapid%20historie_hradu_format.htm

          HTH
          Petr

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
          To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:28 AM
          Subject: [Czechlist] NAME: Zampach


          > Hey, guys!
          >
          > Does the Czech surname Zampach have any identifiable meaning?
          >
          > Jamie
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          > Czechlist resources:
          > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
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        • spektrum2002
          Pokud jde o prijmeni, to nevim, ale u hradu Z^ampach jsem na internetu nasel: ... historicky zajimavou, povestmi opredenou zriceninu hradu Zampach. . Jeho
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 6, 2005
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            Pokud jde o prijmeni, to nevim, ale u hradu Z^ampach jsem na internetu
            nasel:
            ... historicky zajimavou, povestmi opredenou zriceninu hradu Zampach. .
            Jeho puvodni nazev byl Sandbach, coz je doslovny preklad jmena blizke
            vsi Pisecna, ...


            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
            > Hey, guys!
            >
            > Does the Czech surname Zampach have any identifiable meaning?
            >
            > Jamie
          • Jan Culka
            Hey, guy! Most of Czech local names ending with -ach, -pach, -bach are of German origin. Bach = brook. Speaking about Z^ampach, we can presume either Sandbach
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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              Hey, guy!
              Most of Czech local names ending with -ach, -pach, -bach are of German
              origin. Bach = brook. Speaking about Z^ampach, we can presume either
              Sandbach (Sandy brook) or possibly also Sumpfbach (Muddy brook).
              Honza



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
              To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:28 AM
              Subject: [Czechlist] NAME: Zampach


              > Hey, guys!
              >
              > Does the Czech surname Zampach have any identifiable meaning?
              >
              > Jamie
              >
              >
              >
              > Czechlist resources:
              > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
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            • ing.Sárka Rubková
              Zampach je nejen v orlickych horach, ale taky na Sázave Sarka
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                Zampach je nejen v orlickych horach, ale taky na Sázave

                Sarka


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jan Culka
                > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 9:05 AM
                > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Czechlist] NAME: Zampach
                >
                >
                > Hey, guy!
                > Most of Czech local names ending with -ach, -pach, -bach are of German
                > origin. Bach = brook. Speaking about Z^ampach, we can presume either
                > Sandbach (Sandy brook) or possibly also Sumpfbach (Muddy brook).
                > Honza
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                > To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 6:28 AM
                > Subject: [Czechlist] NAME: Zampach
                >
                >
                > > Hey, guys!
                > >
                > > Does the Czech surname Zampach have any identifiable meaning?
                > >
                > > Jamie
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Czechlist resources:
                > > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                > >
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                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                > Czechlist resources:
                > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
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              • James Kirchner
                Thank you, Petr, Petr, Honza and Sarka. My student, née Zampach (without -ová) will be pleased to have this information. By the way, if Zampach came from
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                  Thank you, Petr, Petr, Honza and Sarka. My student, née Zampach
                  (without -ová) will be pleased to have this information.

                  By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                  German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
                  [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                  into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

                  Jamie
                • Jan Culka
                  These b p, g k, z^ s^, etc. are influenced by Austrian pronunciation of German (you certainly know that the Czechs lived under and with the Austrians
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                    These b > p, g > k, z^ > s^, etc. are influenced by Austrian pronunciation
                    of German (you certainly know that the Czechs lived under and with the
                    Austrians some 300 years).
                    And in addition, it is easier to say e.g. z^lap than y^lab, which correct in
                    literary Czech. We were taught that this phenomenon does not appear in
                    literary English - how is it with spoken or dialect English?
                    Honza



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                    To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:28 PM
                    Subject: [Czechlist] THANKS: Zampach


                    Thank you, Petr, Petr, Honza and Sarka. My student, née Zampach
                    (without -ová) will be pleased to have this information.

                    By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                    German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
                    [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                    into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

                    Jamie



                    Czechlist resources:
                    http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Jan Culka
                    What is Zampach´s christian name? My colleague Mojmir Zampach has 3 or 4 children .... they may be between 20 and 30. Honza ... From: James Kirchner
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                      What is Zampach´s christian name? My colleague Mojmir Zampach has 3 or 4
                      children .... they may be between 20 and 30.
                      Honza


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 12:28 PM
                      Subject: [Czechlist] THANKS: Zampach


                      Thank you, Petr, Petr, Honza and Sarka. My student, née Zampach
                      (without -ová) will be pleased to have this information.

                      By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                      German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
                      [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                      into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

                      Jamie



                      Czechlist resources:
                      http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Beata Rodlingova
                      Both of these are likely to be connected with the place of articulation of these sounds. Sounds which share the majority of aspects of articulation (place,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                        Both of these are likely to be connected with the place of
                        articulation of these sounds. Sounds which share the majority of
                        aspects of articulation (place, way, voicing) but differ in one of
                        them tend to replace

                        > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                        > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
                        into
                        > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.

                        "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
                        is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
                        among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
                        Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
                        between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
                        as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

                        And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                        > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).

                        Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
                        share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
                        voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
                        quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
                        (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
                        requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
                        the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
                        that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
                        often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
                        effort and "a lazy speaker."

                        HTH
                        Beata
                      • spektrum2002
                        Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke b jako p a nemecke a jako o . Proto je v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce fotr (Vater) a pro truhlarsky stul ponk (Bank).
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                          Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
                          v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
                          stul "ponk" (Bank).
                          Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
                          poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
                          jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
                          das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
                          jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".
                          Take nas ucitelka nemciny nabadala, abychom predponu "ab-"
                          vyslovovali "ap" (napriklad v "ablehnenen"), ale nevim jestli by to
                          melo vseobecnou platnost.
                          Petr Adamek
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
                          > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                          > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn into
                          > [p]? Purkmistr, etc. And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                          > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
                          >
                          > Jamie
                        • melvyn.geo
                          ... Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after the local sandy
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, ing.Sárka Rubková <rubkova@l...> wrote:
                            > Zampach je nejen v orlickych horach, ale taky na Sázave

                            Incidentally, there is also a market-town up in Cheshire, GB, called
                            Sandbach, which was originally an Anglo-Saxon settlement named after
                            the local sandy brook:

                            Sandbach "sandy stream or valley" – Sanbec dated to the Domesday Book
                            and Sondbache dated to 1260. Also, Sandbeck "sandy brook" on p. 403,
                            with Sandbec dated to 1148 and 1222.
                            www.sca-caid.org/herald/minutes/2003/min0302.html

                            These Saxons certainly got about. The Welsh (just down the road from
                            Sandbach) call the English `Sas' to this day.

                            M.
                          • James Kirchner
                            I m a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would trigger these
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                              I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
                              between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
                              trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

                              On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

                              > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                              > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
                              > into
                              > > [p]?  Purkmistr, etc.
                              >
                              > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
                              > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
                              > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
                              > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
                              > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
                              > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

                              Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
                              assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
                              sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
                              yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
                              to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
                              word breaks.

                              > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                              > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
                              >
                              > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
                              > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
                              > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
                              > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
                              > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
                              > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
                              > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
                              > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
                              > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
                              > effort and "a lazy speaker."

                              Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
                              when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
                              Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
                              something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
                              Bavarian, I'll bet).

                              Jamie


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • James Kirchner
                              ... This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in caught . I can t imagine
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:32 AM, spektrum2002 wrote:

                                > Ceskemu uchu zni nemecke "b" jako "p" a nemecke "a" jako "o". Proto je
                                > v cestine neformalni vyraz pro otce "fotr" (Vater) a pro truhlarsky
                                > stul "ponk" (Bank).

                                This seems like it would have something more to do with the Bavarians
                                pronounce /a/, which is similar to the English vowel in "caught". I
                                can't imagine that Czechs would mistake the /a/ pronounced in Cologne
                                or Hamburg for [o].

                                > Jednou jsem byl jako chlapec v Berline a pani, u ktere jsem bydlel, mne
                                > poslala do samoobsluhy ("supermarketu") pro praci prasek, ktery se mel
                                > jmenovat "Planka-Plink". Bylo mi to divne, tak jsem se zeptal: "Heisst
                                > das Planka-Plink oder Blanka-Blink"? Pry: "Planka-Plink". Samozrejme
                                > jsem pak v obchode nasel prasek o nazvu "Blanka-Blink".

                                I wonder if this is because Czechs lack aspiration in their /p/. If
                                they "don't hear" the German aspiration, it's conceivable that they
                                might have trouble hearing the difference between that and /b/. This
                                would be a matter of what I call "hearing with an accent".

                                I once used the expression "pop psychology" when talking to my
                                department head in Marianske Lazne, and he thought I was talking about
                                the mentality of people who hang around in pubs ([paps] in his speech).

                                Jamie


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jan Culka
                                No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say Wurscht (although the rule says st is pronunciated as scht when in the word beginning only). But with
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                  No, Jamie, even the Austrians (and Bavarians) say "Wurscht" (although the
                                  rule says "st" is pronunciated as "scht" when in the word beginning only).
                                  But with "v", not "b".
                                  It is a mystery. Let´s reconcile with the fact that certain illogical
                                  effects appear sometimes.
                                  Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".
                                  Take into account please that "vur^t" is considered more literate that
                                  "bur^t" although both expressions are rather German than Czech.
                                  Honza


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
                                  To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 2:10 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] CHAT phonological changes (was Zampach)


                                  I'm a phonologist (by training), so I could easily see the relationship
                                  between place of articulation, etc. What I wondered was what would
                                  trigger these changes (in the environment of the sound, etc.).

                                  On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 07:30 AM, Beata Rodlingova wrote:

                                  > > By the way, if Zampach came from Sandbach, why is it that so many
                                  > > German words, on their way to becoming Czech, saw their /b/ turn
                                  > into
                                  > > [p]? Purkmistr, etc.
                                  >
                                  > "B" and "p" are both biabial plosives, with the only difference "b"
                                  > is voiced while "p" is voiceless. A similar situation may be observed
                                  > among Scandinavian languages, where Danish words have "b" where their
                                  > Norwegian counterparts have "p". The same principle (alternation
                                  > between voiced and voiceless phonemes) applies to English words such
                                  > as "wife" vs. "wives", "use (verb)" vs. "use (noun)".

                                  Right, but in English, the reason for the voicing would have been
                                  assimilation when the consonant is between two vowels or other voiced
                                  sonorants. (The verb "use" would probably have had a suffix in days of
                                  yore.) I don't see anything in the environment that would change /b/
                                  to [p] in "Bürgermeister", unless the Czechs devoiced those stops after
                                  word breaks.

                                  > And I seem to notice that the [v] could turn
                                  > > into [b] (as in a word for sausage).
                                  >
                                  > Although these two do not have as much in common as "b" and "p" (they
                                  > share only 1 pronounciation feature out of 3, i.e. they are both
                                  > voiced), they seem to occur as counterparts in everyday pronunciation
                                  > quite often. I believe it is because "b", being a bilabial plosive
                                  > (pronounced as the air is channeled between both lips, 'exploding')
                                  > requires more energy than "v", a labiodental fricative (pronounced as
                                  > the air creates friction between the lower lip and the teeth). Notice
                                  > that when Czechs are slack with their pronounciation, they would
                                  > often pronounce their "b's" as "v's", on the principle of least
                                  > effort and "a lazy speaker."

                                  Okay, but why would "Wurst" end up in Czech beginning with a /b/ sound
                                  when Czech has a /v/ sound already? I could see if it got into
                                  Spanish, but not Czech. This is very mysterious. Has to have
                                  something to do with Austrian pronunciation, as Honza said, (and
                                  Bavarian, I'll bet).

                                  Jamie


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  Czechlist resources:
                                  http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation









                                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                                • Roman Dergam
                                  ... Urcite. Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000): Poèet výskytù: 370890 ... Poèet výskytù: 1622 ... Roman Dergam
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                    V Út, 07. 06. 2005 v 14:33, Jan Culka píše:

                                    > Maybe "bu" sounded to Czech ear more pleasantly or strikingly than "vu".

                                    Urcite.

                                    Cesky narodni korpus (using syn2000):

                                    Počet výskytů: 370890
                                    > Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"

                                    Počet výskytů: 1622
                                    > Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                                    Roman Dergam
                                  • James Kirchner
                                    ... That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks. How do you access this corpus? Jamie
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
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                                      On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:

                                      > Počet výskytů: 370890
                                      >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                                      >
                                      > Počet výskytů: 1622
                                      >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"

                                      That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.

                                      How do you access this corpus?

                                      Jamie
                                    • Roman Dergam
                                      Hello, look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and use it from
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
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                                        Hello,

                                        look at http://ucnk.ff.cuni.cz . You can access it either on-line or
                                        register for free, download an application (for Windows or Linux) and
                                        use it from your computer (for more sophisticated searches). Great
                                        stuff.

                                        Roman Dergam



                                        V St, 08. 06. 2005 v 02:21, James Kirchner píše:
                                        > On Tuesday, June 7, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Roman Dergam wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Počet výskytů: 370890
                                        > >> Query : "bu.*" >> a query for words starting with "bu"
                                        > >
                                        > > Počet výskytů: 1622
                                        > >> Query : "vu.*" >> a query for words starting with "vu"
                                        >
                                        > That was the next thing I was going to ask. Thanks.
                                        >
                                        > How do you access this corpus?
                                        >
                                        > Jamie
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Czechlist resources:
                                        > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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