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TERM: Samospasitelnost

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  • Laura Rescio
    Hello all, I ve been quietly following your list, which I find very useful, for quite a while and now the time has come for me to ask a question: how to
    Message 1 of 11 , May 27, 2005
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      Hello all,

      I've been quietly following your list, which I find very useful, for
      quite a while and now the time has come for me to ask a question: how to
      translate "samospasitelnost"?
      Thanks for any help,

      Laura
    • Jirka Bolech
      Hi Laura, I suggest, straightforwardly, self-redemption ... Jirka Bolech
      Message 2 of 11 , May 27, 2005
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        Hi Laura,

        I suggest, straightforwardly, 'self-redemption'...

        Jirka Bolech
      • tomas_barendregt
        ... for ... how to ... Hello Laura, Obviously, there are different ways to translate this in different contexts. I am hard-pressed to come up with a
        Message 3 of 11 , May 27, 2005
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          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Laura Rescio <lrescio@f...> wrote:
          > Hello all,
          >
          > I've been quietly following your list, which I find very useful,
          for
          > quite a while and now the time has come for me to ask a question:
          how to
          > translate "samospasitelnost"?
          > Thanks for any help,
          >
          > Laura

          Hello Laura,

          Obviously, there are different ways to translate this in different
          contexts. I am hard-pressed to come up with a translation for the
          noun (except for "(self)-conceit" where this refers to someone's
          belief that they are the pinnacle of all creation and "do not even
          need any help to save their souls when the day of reckoning comes" -
          Mr. Klaus anyone?) but when it comes to the adjective derived from it
          (samospasitelny) I have two suggestions:

          an end unto itself (veda neni samospasitelna - science is not an end
          unto itself)

          cure-all (tento lek neni samospasitelny - this medicine is no cure-
          all)

          Tom
        • melvyn.geo
          ... Oh, your humour is very cruel . I have difficulties coming up with anything neat for the noun as well. I suspect that in practice most translators
          Message 4 of 11 , May 28, 2005
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            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "tomas_barendregt" <barendregt@e...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Obviously, there are different ways to translate this in different
            > contexts. I am hard-pressed to come up with a translation for the
            > noun (except for "(self)-conceit" where this refers to someone's
            > belief that they are the pinnacle of all creation and "do not even
            > need any help to save their souls when the day of reckoning comes" -
            > Mr. Klaus anyone?)

            Oh, your humour is very cruel <gag>.

            I have difficulties coming up with anything neat for the noun as well.
            I suspect that in practice most translators would recast the noun as a
            phrase of some kind (though I might well be missing something). Give
            us some context, Laura, and I'll give you an example.

            >but when it comes to the adjective derived from it
            > (samospasitelny) I have two suggestions:
            >
            > an end unto itself (veda neni samospasitelna - science is not an end
            > unto itself)

            Nice one.

            > cure-all (tento lek neni samospasitelny - this medicine is no cure-
            > all)
            >

            I see Fronek goes along with this idea (samospasitelny prostredek =
            panacea). I find his "only true church" (= samospasitelna cirkev)
            idea is supported by the translations of 'alleinseligmachend' in
            German dictionaries (e.g. Leo). However, I found that "one true
            church" gets about ten times more search engine hits than "only true
            church), many (apparently) from authoritative looking sites.

            This leads me on to the idea that in some informal contexts we might
            refer to "the one and only" or even "the be-all and end-all"...

            Old Poldauf has an interesting thought on the adjective: "in which
            alone salvation is to be found"! He mentions that historically the
            adjective was used to refer to German "as the language of the
            authorities or now the lingua franca of Central and much of Eastern
            Europe". Can't say I've ever heard this usage before.

            BR

            Melvyn
            If a man insisted always on being serious, and never allowed himself a
            little amusement and relaxation, he would go mad or become unstable
            without knowing it.
            HERODOTUS
          • lrescio@fastwebnet.it
            Whooops! Sorry for not replying earlier, but I was forced to be offline for a while... Thanks for your replies. In fact, without context it is quite tough, so
            Message 5 of 11 , May 31, 2005
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              Whooops! Sorry for not replying earlier, but I was forced to be offline for
              a while...
              Thanks for your replies. In fact, without context it is quite tough, so here
              it is (without hacky and carky, alas). It's a book about religion and in
              the previous lines the subject are people living in sin:

              "V cirkvi se setkavame casto i s opacnym jevem - se samospasitelnosti, kdy
              si lide chteji zajistit spasu svymi zboznymi skutky a dodrzovanim cirkevnich
              prikazani".

              In fact I had found the German translation, but that was not quite enough...
              since the target language is Italian. Do you thing it could mean something
              like "bigotry"?

              Thanks again!

              Laura


              >
              >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "tomas_barendregt" <barendregt@e...>
              >wrote:
              >>
              >> Obviously, there are different ways to translate this in different
              >> contexts. I am hard-pressed to come up with a translation for the
              >> noun (except for "(self)-conceit" where this refers to someone's
              >> belief that they are the pinnacle of all creation and "do not even
              >> need any help to save their souls when the day of reckoning comes" -
              >> Mr. Klaus anyone?)
              >
              >Oh, your humour is very cruel <gag>.
              >
              >I have difficulties coming up with anything neat for the noun as well.
              >I suspect that in practice most translators would recast the noun as a
              >phrase of some kind (though I might well be missing something). Give
              >us some context, Laura, and I'll give you an example.
              >
              >>but when it comes to the adjective derived from it
              >> (samospasitelny) I have two suggestions:
              >>
              >> an end unto itself (veda neni samospasitelna - science is not an end
              >> unto itself)
              >
              >Nice one.
              >
              >> cure-all (tento lek neni samospasitelny - this medicine is no cure-
              >> all)
              >>
              >
              >I see Fronek goes along with this idea (samospasitelny prostredek =
              >panacea). I find his "only true church" (= samospasitelna cirkev)
              >idea is supported by the translations of 'alleinseligmachend' in
              >German dictionaries (e.g. Leo). However, I found that "one true
              >church" gets about ten times more search engine hits than "only true
              >church), many (apparently) from authoritative looking sites.
              >
              >This leads me on to the idea that in some informal contexts we might
              >refer to "the one and only" or even "the be-all and end-all"...
              >
              >Old Poldauf has an interesting thought on the adjective: "in which
              >alone salvation is to be found"! He mentions that historically the
              >adjective was used to refer to German "as the language of the
              >authorities or now the lingua franca of Central and much of Eastern
              >Europe". Can't say I've ever heard this usage before.
              >
              >BR
              >
              >Melvyn
              >If a man insisted always on being serious, and never allowed himself a
              >little amusement and relaxation, he would go mad or become unstable
              >without knowing it.
              >HERODOTUS
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Czechlist resources:
              >http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Terminus Technicus
              Not an expert on religion, bigotry, living by the bible, or indeed its ... cirkevnich ... self-redemption, self-salvation... the lide snazici se zajistit si
              Message 6 of 11 , May 31, 2005
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                Not an expert on religion, bigotry, living by the bible, or indeed its
                language, but to me it sounds like:


                > "V cirkvi se setkavame casto i s opacnym jevem - se samospasitelnosti, kdy
                > si lide chteji zajistit spasu svymi zboznymi skutky a dodrzovanim
                cirkevnich
                > prikazani".


                self-redemption, self-salvation... the "lide snazici se zajistit si spasu"
                bit is the key...

                people trying to save(salve) themselves by performing religious deeds and
                obiding with church "rules"
                .
                ... not sure, but bigotry seems a bit stronger and negative to me...


                matej
              • melvyn.geo
                ... spasu ... Agreed. I am the last person to go to for advice on doctrinally sound terminology, but FWIW I d go along with Matej s (and Jirka s) suggestions
                Message 7 of 11 , May 31, 2005
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                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
                  <czechlist@t...> wrote:

                  > self-redemption, self-salvation... the "lide snazici se zajistit si
                  spasu"
                  > bit is the key...


                  Agreed. I am the last person to go to for advice on doctrinally sound
                  terminology, but FWIW I'd go along with Matej's (and Jirka's)
                  suggestions in this context (without context, it didn't originally
                  occur to me as likely that the word would actually crop up in its
                  original religious sense). Look up 'self-redemption' on the search
                  engines in any text on 'good works' versus 'faith', a well-roasted old
                  chestnut among Christians.

                  BR

                  Melvyn
                  Most men pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry
                  past it.
                  - Soren Kierkegaard
                • James Kirchner
                  ... Definitely not salve. That s a different thing entirely. ... abiding by ... I think that in English this concept is expressed in a religious context as
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 31, 2005
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                    On Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

                    > > "V cirkvi se setkavame casto i s opacnym jevem - se
                    > samospasitelnosti, kdy
                    > > si lide chteji zajistit spasu svymi zboznymi skutky a dodrzovanim
                    > cirkevnich
                    > > prikazani".
                    >
                    >
                    > self-redemption, self-salvation...  the "lide snazici se zajistit si
                    > spasu"
                    > bit is the key...
                    >
                    > people trying to save(salve)

                    Definitely not salve. That's a different thing entirely.

                    > themselves by performing religious deeds and
                    > obiding with

                    abiding by

                    > church "rules"

                    I think that in English this concept is expressed in a religious
                    context as "obtaining salvation through (good) works", "achieving
                    salvation by (good) deeds". Any variation of [achieving/obtaining
                    salvation through/by works/deeds] would work.

                    Some people who want to express the idea negatively (usually Christian
                    Evangelicals with a strong, less-informed anti-Catholic prejudice) will
                    even say "purchase salvation by works".

                    If the tone is derisive and intended as a sarcastic comment about
                    people who think that their good works alone will save them, it
                    wouldn't be strange to say "do-it-yourself salvation". I think
                    Catholics and Protestants would use this to talk about immoral people
                    who want to buy their way into heaven by doing things.

                    If I knew the ideological bent of the text, I could guess it better.

                    Jamie


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Laura Rescio
                    Hello all, here I am, late again... the text is by no means sarcastic, it is an interview with cardinal Spidlik and I don t think the journalist meant it in
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 6, 2005
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                      Hello all,

                      here I am, late again... the text is by no means sarcastic, it is an
                      interview with cardinal Spidlik and I don't think the journalist meant
                      it in any less than orthodox way :)
                      I think I'll stick to "self-redemption" or "self-salvation" then, not
                      forgetting the "good deeds". I hope I find a good Italian equivalent.
                      Many thanks to all of you who shed light on the matter: Jirka, Tomas,
                      Melvyn, Matej, James. You've been a great help!

                      Laura

                      James Kirchner wrote:

                      >On Tuesday, May 31, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>>"V cirkvi se setkavame casto i s opacnym jevem - se
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>samospasitelnosti, kdy
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>si lide chteji zajistit spasu svymi zboznymi skutky a dodrzovanim
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>cirkevnich
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>>prikazani".
                      >>>
                      >>>
                      >>self-redemption, self-salvation... the "lide snazici se zajistit si
                      >>spasu"
                      >>bit is the key...
                      >>
                      >>people trying to save(salve)
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >Definitely not salve. That's a different thing entirely.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>themselves by performing religious deeds and
                      >>obiding with
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >abiding by
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>church "rules"
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >I think that in English this concept is expressed in a religious
                      >context as "obtaining salvation through (good) works", "achieving
                      >salvation by (good) deeds". Any variation of [achieving/obtaining
                      >salvation through/by works/deeds] would work.
                      >
                      >Some people who want to express the idea negatively (usually Christian
                      >Evangelicals with a strong, less-informed anti-Catholic prejudice) will
                      >even say "purchase salvation by works".
                      >
                      >If the tone is derisive and intended as a sarcastic comment about
                      >people who think that their good works alone will save them, it
                      >wouldn't be strange to say "do-it-yourself salvation". I think
                      >Catholics and Protestants would use this to talk about immoral people
                      >who want to buy their way into heaven by doing things.
                      >
                      >If I knew the ideological bent of the text, I could guess it better.
                      >
                      >Jamie
                      >
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Czechlist resources:
                      >http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • melvyn.geo
                      ... La self-service redenzione? :-) My Italian is so bad that I have difficulty saying one ice-cream and be quick about it! , but how about autoredenzione ?
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 7, 2005
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                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Laura Rescio <lrescio@f...> wrote:
                        > I think I'll stick to "self-redemption" or "self-salvation" then, not
                        > forgetting the "good deeds". I hope I find a good Italian equivalent.

                        La self-service redenzione? :-) My Italian is so bad that I have
                        difficulty saying 'one ice-cream and be quick about it!', but how
                        about 'autoredenzione'? Or does that mean 'car repairs'? :-)

                        M.
                      • Laura Rescio
                        Actually, autoredenzione IS the word I was considering... it s a longish word, but it has quite a lot of google hits, both in positive and negative meanings
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 7, 2005
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                          Actually, "autoredenzione" IS the word I was considering... it's a
                          longish word, but it has quite a lot of google hits, both in positive
                          and negative meanings of the word... good guess :)

                          Laura

                          melvyn.geo wrote:

                          >La self-service redenzione? :-) My Italian is so bad that I have
                          >difficulty saying 'one ice-cream and be quick about it!', but how
                          >about 'autoredenzione'? Or does that mean 'car repairs'? :-)
                          >
                          >M.
                          >
                          >
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