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TERM: kraj

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  • Jirka Bolech
    Hello there, the Czech word kraj as an administrative unit of the country is usually translated as region into English. I wonder if province would
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 29, 2005
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      Hello there,

      the Czech word "kraj" as an administrative unit of the country is usually
      translated as 'region' into English. I wonder if 'province' would actually
      be a more suitable rendition. Do you see any pros or cons for either option?

      Jirka Bolech
    • Martin Janda
      Yes, I do - you are trying to go against a well-established terminology. Regardless whether province is better or not ( I can t see why it should be), that
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 29, 2005
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        Yes, I do - you are trying to go against a well-established terminology.
        Regardless whether province is better or not ( I can't see why it should
        be), that might raise confusion of end users and complaints of Czech
        clients (that kind who knows only 3 to 4 English words, but checks these
        very carefully). in other words, you are asking for trouble.
        Martin



        Jirka Bolech wrote:

        >Hello there,
        >
        >the Czech word "kraj" as an administrative unit of the country is usually
        >translated as 'region' into English. I wonder if 'province' would actually
        >be a more suitable rendition. Do you see any pros or cons for either option?
        >
        >Jirka Bolech
        >
        >
        >
        >Czechlist resources:
        >http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • James Kirchner
        ... There is also the problem that according to anglophone custom, province is used for certain countries but not for others. For example, we usually talk
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 29, 2005
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          On Friday, April 29, 2005, at 09:23 AM, Martin Janda wrote:

          > Yes, I do - you are trying to go against a well-established
          > terminology.
          > Regardless whether province is better or not ( I can't see why it
          > should
          > be), that might raise confusion of end users and complaints of Czech
          > clients (that kind who knows only 3 to 4 English words, but checks
          > these
          > very carefully). in other words, you are asking for trouble.

          There is also the problem that according to anglophone custom,
          "province" is used for certain countries but not for others. For
          example, we usually talk about provinces of France, Canada and China,
          but regions of Russia, Spain and some other countries. There is no
          hard, fast rule, but I would say that any country smaller than a US
          state would usually not be discussed as having provinces, so the Czech
          Republic would not qualify based on that criterion. When Jirka
          suggested "province" for "kraj", my mind immediately filled with images
          of China, Thailand and Burma. You could probably translate "kraj" as
          "prefecture" also, but that would make it sound like you were in Japan.

          Personally, I think that, realistically, "kraj" should be translated as
          "county", as such areas are called even in English-speaking countries
          that have no nobility. However, Michael doesn't like that one, because
          he thinks that if you talk about a county in Europe, there should be a
          count lurking around.

          Jamie
        • Michael Grant
          ... If you *were* going to use county in reference to the Czech Rep, I think it would be a better fit for okres (and would also have the advantage of
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 29, 2005
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            On Apr 29, 2005, at 9:52 AM, James Kirchner wrote:

            > Personally, I think that, realistically, "kraj" should be translated as
            > "county", as such areas are called even in English-speaking countries
            > that have no nobility. However, Michael doesn't like that one, because
            > he thinks that if you talk about a county in Europe, there should be a
            > count lurking around.

            If you *were* going to use 'county' in reference to the Czech Rep, I
            think it would be a better fit for 'okres' (and would also have the
            advantage of eliminating the confusion between 'district' = 'okres' and
            'district' = 'obvod'). FWIW.

            Michael

            --
            "If you get up early, work late, and pay your taxes, you will get ahead
            if you strike oil."

            - J. Paul Getty
          • James Kirchner
            ... Oh, yeah. I m getting rusty in those distinctions. Jamie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 29, 2005
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              On Friday, April 29, 2005, at 12:01 PM, Michael Grant wrote:

              > On Apr 29, 2005, at 9:52 AM, James Kirchner wrote:
              >
              > > Personally, I think that, realistically, "kraj" should be translated
              > as
              > > "county", as such areas are called even in English-speaking countries
              > > that have no nobility.  However, Michael doesn't like that one,
              > because
              > > he thinks that if you talk about a county in Europe, there should be
              > a
              > > count lurking around.
              >
              > If you *were* going to use 'county' in reference to the Czech Rep, I
              > think it would be a better fit for 'okres' (and would also have the
              > advantage of eliminating the confusion between 'district' = 'okres' and
              > 'district' = 'obvod'). FWIW.

              Oh, yeah. I'm getting rusty in those distinctions.

              Jamie



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jirka Bolech
              Thanks guys, Martin, Jamie, Michael, for your ideas. Unlike Martin, I see certain superiority of using province over using region for kraj, but I never
              Message 6 of 12 , May 2, 2005
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                Thanks guys, Martin, Jamie, Michael, for your ideas.

                Unlike Martin, I see certain superiority of using 'province' over using
                'region' for kraj, but I never meant to suggest really using the former
                agains the main stream. I think 'province' is better than 'region', because
                without enough context or background, I believe, it is easier to guess what
                sort or relative size of administrative unit it is. 'Region' simply has a
                too broad meaning.

                I can't, however, but agree and adjust to the fact that 'region' is the word
                most commonly used for "kraj", although 'province' does show a fair degree
                of usage for this, not only by Czechs, but other nationalities, which
                apparently have different dictionaries, as well.

                I also agree with Michael that 'county' is a nice solution to translating
                "okres", as the well-established 'district' sounds more like it's for
                election purposes only.

                Frankly, I'm not much wiser about translating "kraj" now. It's just occurred
                to me that keeping the Czech word, perhaps capitalizing it, "Kraj", within
                names of particular ones, may be a good way of dealing with that issue...

                Jirka Bolech
              • Simon Vollam
                ... occurred ... within ... issue... To back up what Martin said, the kraje fall officially within the EU s (aptly named?) NUTS system
                Message 7 of 12 , May 2, 2005
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                  > Frankly, I'm not much wiser about translating "kraj" now. It's just
                  occurred
                  > to me that keeping the Czech word, perhaps capitalizing it, "Kraj",
                  within
                  > names of particular ones, may be a good way of dealing with that
                  issue...

                  To back up what Martin said, the 'kraje' fall officially within the
                  EU's (aptly named?) NUTS system
                  (http://europa.eu.int/comm/eurostat/ramon/nuts/home_regions_en.html).
                  And, like it or not, the official EU term for them is regions.

                  Simon
                • melvyn.geo
                  ... the word ... degree ... I notice that the three historical Czech lands of Bohemia, Moravia and (bits of) Silesia are sometimes referred to (even by
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 2, 2005
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                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@s...>
                    wrote:

                    > I can't, however, but agree and adjust to the fact that 'region' is
                    the word
                    > most commonly used for "kraj", although 'province' does show a fair
                    degree
                    > of usage for this, not only by Czechs, but other nationalities,

                    I notice that the three historical Czech lands of Bohemia, Moravia and
                    (bits of) Silesia are sometimes referred to (even by encyclopedias
                    such as Encarta) as the "Czech provinces" (i.e of the Austrian
                    Empire). Possibly a source of confusion in some situations??

                    And in any case, doesn't 'province' often have a rather traditional
                    imperial/monarchical feel to it?

                    Still, it's true that the title 'provincial governor' confers a
                    certain grandeur on what we might otherwise rather prosaically call a
                    'regional governor/administrator'. ;-)


                    > "Kraj", within
                    > names of particular ones, may be a good way of dealing with that
                    issue...

                    Or whichever translation you choose, add 'kraj' in brackets at the
                    first mention. Always more than one way to skin a cat.

                    BR

                    Melvyn

                    History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.
                    - WINSTON CHURCHILL
                  • Michael Grant
                    ... I ve used province once or twice for zeme (i.e. Bohemia/Moravia/Silesia). ... Well, as Jamie noted, I d probably really only use county for a
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 2, 2005
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                      On May 2, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jirka Bolech wrote:

                      > Unlike Martin, I see certain superiority of using 'province' over using
                      > 'region' for kraj, but I never meant to suggest really using the former
                      > agains the main stream. I think 'province' is better than 'region',
                      > because
                      > without enough context or background, I believe, it is easier to guess
                      > what
                      > sort or relative size of administrative unit it is. 'Region' simply
                      > has a
                      > too broad meaning.

                      I've used 'province' once or twice for 'zeme' (i.e.
                      Bohemia/Moravia/Silesia).


                      > I also agree with Michael that 'county' is a nice solution to
                      > translating
                      > "okres", as the well-established 'district' sounds more like it's for
                      > election purposes only.

                      Well, as Jamie noted, I'd probably really only use 'county' for a
                      hrabstvi.

                      Michael

                      --
                      "When you think you just lack words, what you really lack are ideas."
                      - George Lakoff
                    • kzgafas
                      ... using ... former ... than region , because ... guess what ... simply has a ... is the word ... fair degree ... which ... translating ... for ... just
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 2, 2005
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                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@s...>
                        wrote:
                        > Thanks guys, Martin, Jamie, Michael, for your ideas.
                        >
                        > Unlike Martin, I see certain superiority of using 'province' over
                        using
                        > 'region' for kraj, but I never meant to suggest really using the
                        former
                        > agains the main stream. I think 'province' is better
                        than 'region', because
                        > without enough context or background, I believe, it is easier to
                        guess what
                        > sort or relative size of administrative unit it is. 'Region'
                        simply has a
                        > too broad meaning.
                        >
                        > I can't, however, but agree and adjust to the fact that 'region'
                        is the word
                        > most commonly used for "kraj", although 'province' does show a
                        fair degree
                        > of usage for this, not only by Czechs, but other nationalities,
                        which
                        > apparently have different dictionaries, as well.
                        >
                        > I also agree with Michael that 'county' is a nice solution to
                        translating
                        > "okres", as the well-established 'district' sounds more like it's
                        for
                        > election purposes only.
                        >
                        > Frankly, I'm not much wiser about translating "kraj" now. It's
                        just occurred
                        > to me that keeping the Czech word, perhaps capitalizing
                        it, "Kraj", within
                        > names of particular ones, may be a good way of dealing with that
                        issue...

                        I feel something weird or strange (old-fashioned?) in assigning CR
                        administrative units as counties or provinces. I like much more
                        regions and districts. You are right that they are both too broad
                        terms, but they sound nice neutral and modern to me, and when used
                        with the context making it clear...why not? Region of..., District
                        of...
                        It also seems to be an example of a case when you as a translator
                        do not need to feel yourself obliged to find a solution, but rather
                        leave it neutral and open toward further development (settling
                        down).

                        K.
                      • Michael Gmail
                        ... Krai and oblast seem to be pretty common in English with reference to Russian administrative units. I m not entirely sure whether that would be an
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 3, 2005
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                          On May 2, 2005, at 9:54 AM, melvyn.geo wrote:

                          >> "Kraj", within
                          >> names of particular ones, may be a good way of dealing with that
                          >>
                          > issue...
                          >
                          > Or whichever translation you choose, add 'kraj' in brackets at the
                          > first mention. Always more than one way to skin a cat.

                          'Krai' and 'oblast' seem to be pretty common in English with
                          reference to Russian administrative units. I'm not entirely sure
                          whether that would be an argument for or against using the Czech
                          words in English texts....

                          Michael


                          --
                          <http://globalocal.blogspot.com/>

                          "Open the pod bay doors, Hal."
                          "I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that."
                        • Jirka Bolech
                          More rather belated thanks for further ideas to Simon, Melvyn, Michael, and Kostas. Your respective contributions convinced me that region remains the best
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 12, 2005
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                            More rather belated thanks for further ideas to Simon, Melvyn, Michael, and
                            Kostas.

                            Your respective contributions convinced me that 'region' remains the best
                            safe choice translating "kraj" as an administrative unit of the Czech
                            Republic with a bit of opening for the unexplored possibility of leaving the
                            word in Czech...

                            Jirka Bolech
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