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CHAT: G. W. Bush and his possible dual speech mode

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  • kzgafas
    My wife has just commented (when listening to G. W. Bush at a press conference in Brussels) that he talks to the European audience in different English than
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 21, 2005
      My wife has just commented (when listening to G. W. Bush at a press
      conference in Brussels) that he talks to the European audience in
      different English than when talking to "American people". (no
      midwestern accent, rather East-coast, resembling British)

      K.
    • James Kirchner
      ... I heard recordings of part of his speeches in Europe today, and his accent is the same. It s not Midwestern, but a softened Texas accent (probably because
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 21, 2005
        On Monday, February 21, 2005, at 03:28 PM, kzgafas wrote:

        > My wife has just commented (when listening to G. W. Bush at a press
        > conference in Brussels) that he talks to the European audience in
        > different English than when talking to "American people". (no
        > midwestern accent, rather East-coast, resembling British)

        I heard recordings of part of his speeches in Europe today, and his
        accent is the same. It's not Midwestern, but a softened Texas accent
        (probably because General American, and not Texan is likely his native
        accent). He definitely does not sound any more East Coast than he does
        at home. ***Remember that the Midwestern accent is the standard
        broadcast accent in the US; the East Coast accents are considered
        non-standard.*** The only difference is that Bush more than likely
        uses fewer colloquialisms when addressing the Europeans than when he
        addresses us. When speaking to us, he frequently uses plain
        expressions that the European intelligentsia might not understand or
        fully appreciate. So, adjusting one's speech in that situation is
        normal. (I would bet that during my whole three years in the CR, I
        never spoke English normally to a Czech, even once. Trying to do so
        caused too many problems.)

        Another factor -- and I'm affected by this a lot -- is that we are
        subjected to so much propaganda claiming that Bush speaks like an
        imbecile that we are startled when he gives one of his normal speeches.
        (Before his second inauguration speech, a news announcer on the BBC --
        not even a commentator -- mused as to whether or not Bush would succeed
        in "aping" speeches by Kennedy or FDR. He didn't say "emulate" or even
        "imitate". He said "ape". I'm waiting for the day the BBC compares
        some European leader to a monkey.)

        This "talks like an imbecile" propaganda is used frequently on
        Republicans, and involves printing unedited quotes, which journalists
        normally do not do. It's done less often with Democrats, but
        occasionally you see it used on them too. The technique was used a lot
        on Ronald Reagan, even though he was a rather eloquent orator. It was
        tried with daddy Bush, but for some reason it didn't stick, and they
        focused the technique on his vice president instead (thus surprising me
        when I heard him make good speeches and articulate interviews). For a
        little while a few journalists tried doing it with Clinton, but
        apparently the "Slick Willie" image was more useful, and the "stupid
        quotes" stopped. Now they're using it with Dubya. Having worked in
        journalism and seen how it's done, I'm not fooled by it anymore.

        Another thing about American journalism: If a major American news
        publication -- Time, Newsweek, etc. -- shows a large picture of a US
        president or vice president sweating, it's the first signal that the
        press is going to attack him like sharks smelling blood, and try to
        ruin his career. I've seen this numerous times. With Carter, it
        wasn't a picture of him sweating, but of him collapsing at a marathon.
        Same thing.

        Jamie


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Terminus Technicus
        I think we already know who Jamie voted for from his previous posts (I didn t manage to reply then, but I for one certainly don t approve of FBI agents with
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
          I think we already know who Jamie voted for from his previous posts (I
          didn't manage to reply then, but I for one certainly don't approve of FBI
          agents with gaint machine guns joy-riding the streets of my city and your
          comments of "didn't everybody leave" was a bit off too, do that in your
          cities if you want, I didn't feel any safer with the machine guns, quite the
          contrary)....

          Fair enough, I wouldn't say Bush is an imbecile, comparing him to a primate
          isn't much creative, I agree, but to claim he's super-intelligent and a good
          speaker is a bit of an exaggeration... take just one of the famous Bushisms
          (my wife and other astronauts, perhaps?) - and don't tell me it's down to
          bad journalists... likewise his famous geography glitches

          Anyway, just wanted to say that I heard an excerpt from his (TV) interview
          with a Slovak radio journalist yesterday (the Slovak girl really struggled
          with ther questions) - he wasn't saying much (apart from Putin being his
          "close friend" and that it allowed GWB to say things to him in private that
          others might not say to him "Hey Vlad, how about killing less people down
          South and letting some international companies survive, huh??"), he was in a
          simplistic mode, grammar and colloqualism-wise, but I don't blame him for
          that seeing/hearing the Slovak girl struggle through her questions, but what
          he was saying was so bloody patronising that it made me grit my teeth... he
          did manage to avoid saying Slovenia through the entire five minutes that
          Czech TV aired, though...

          Just felt like some counter-propaganda to yours, Jamie, but no offence (to
          you or Dubbya) meant

          Matej




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...>
          To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 10:03 PM
          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] CHAT: G. W. Bush and his possible dual speech mode


          >
          >
          > On Monday, February 21, 2005, at 03:28 PM, kzgafas wrote:
          >
          > > My wife has just commented (when listening to G. W. Bush at a press
          > > conference in Brussels) that he talks to the European audience in
          > > different English than when talking to "American people". (no
          > > midwestern accent, rather East-coast, resembling British)
          >
          > I heard recordings of part of his speeches in Europe today, and his
          > accent is the same. It's not Midwestern, but a softened Texas accent
          > (probably because General American, and not Texan is likely his native
          > accent). He definitely does not sound any more East Coast than he does
          > at home. ***Remember that the Midwestern accent is the standard
          > broadcast accent in the US; the East Coast accents are considered
          > non-standard.*** The only difference is that Bush more than likely
          > uses fewer colloquialisms when addressing the Europeans than when he
          > addresses us. When speaking to us, he frequently uses plain
          > expressions that the European intelligentsia might not understand or
          > fully appreciate. So, adjusting one's speech in that situation is
          > normal. (I would bet that during my whole three years in the CR, I
          > never spoke English normally to a Czech, even once. Trying to do so
          > caused too many problems.)
          >
          > Another factor -- and I'm affected by this a lot -- is that we are
          > subjected to so much propaganda claiming that Bush speaks like an
          > imbecile that we are startled when he gives one of his normal speeches.
          > (Before his second inauguration speech, a news announcer on the BBC --
          > not even a commentator -- mused as to whether or not Bush would succeed
          > in "aping" speeches by Kennedy or FDR. He didn't say "emulate" or even
          > "imitate". He said "ape". I'm waiting for the day the BBC compares
          > some European leader to a monkey.)
          >
          > This "talks like an imbecile" propaganda is used frequently on
          > Republicans, and involves printing unedited quotes, which journalists
          > normally do not do. It's done less often with Democrats, but
          > occasionally you see it used on them too. The technique was used a lot
          > on Ronald Reagan, even though he was a rather eloquent orator. It was
          > tried with daddy Bush, but for some reason it didn't stick, and they
          > focused the technique on his vice president instead (thus surprising me
          > when I heard him make good speeches and articulate interviews). For a
          > little while a few journalists tried doing it with Clinton, but
          > apparently the "Slick Willie" image was more useful, and the "stupid
          > quotes" stopped. Now they're using it with Dubya. Having worked in
          > journalism and seen how it's done, I'm not fooled by it anymore.
          >
          > Another thing about American journalism: If a major American news
          > publication -- Time, Newsweek, etc. -- shows a large picture of a US
          > president or vice president sweating, it's the first signal that the
          > press is going to attack him like sharks smelling blood, and try to
          > ruin his career. I've seen this numerous times. With Carter, it
          > wasn't a picture of him sweating, but of him collapsing at a marathon.
          > Same thing.
          >
          > Jamie
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > Czechlist resources:
          > http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
          >
          > Obcasnik:
          > http://zehrovak.bloguje.cz
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • James Kirchner
          ... You can t tell anything about my voting habits based on my opinions. I defend Clinton too, when it s unpopular. (His remark, It depends on what the
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
            On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 05:07 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

            > I think we already know who Jamie voted for from his previous posts

            You can't tell anything about my voting habits based on my opinions. I
            defend Clinton too, when it's unpopular. (His remark, "It depends on
            what the meaning of 'is' is," that everyone made so much fun of, was
            actually a very reasonable statement in the context of his questioning.)

            > (I didn't manage to reply then, but I for one certainly don't approve
            > of FBI
            > agents with gaint machine guns joy-riding the streets of my city and
            > your
            > comments of "didn't everybody leave" was a bit off too, do that in your
            > cities if you want, I didn't feel any safer with the machine guns,
            > quite the
            > contrary)....

            Well, the Prague authorities could have refused the visit for exactly
            those reasons, if they'd wanted to. Anywhere in the world there are a
            zillion people who want a shot at any American president or even
            presidential candidate on both sides. I have been inconvenienced by
            closed freeways just because Al Gore was passing through town. I'm
            sorry you don't want security measures taken to protect our president,
            and it may be all the same to you whether he gets murdered or not, but
            if you don't care for the way it's done, you have to take that issue up
            with your own political authorities.

            > Fair enough, I wouldn't say Bush is an imbecile, comparing him to a
            > primate
            > isn't much creative, I agree, but to claim he's super-intelligent and
            > a good
            > speaker is a bit of an exaggeration...

            Did I say he was super-intelligent? I didn't say that. However, he
            does have academic degrees that are much more demanding than those many
            of his detractors have (I think Michael Moore didn't get much past high
            school). You can get into Harvard and Yale partly by family
            connections (although family connections won't necessarily keep you in
            those schools), but they don't just hand you the degree at the end of
            the program. It may be possible for the daughter of the mayor of
            Marianske Lazne at the hotelovka, but Ivy League schools don't do that.

            > take just one of the famous Bushisms
            > (my wife and other astronauts, perhaps?) - and don't tell me it's down
            > to
            > bad journalists... likewise his famous geography glitches

            I didn't say it was due to BAD journalists. It's due to journalists
            who know EXACTLY what they're doing, which is publishing raw, unedited
            quotes in order to make him look stupid. Every president makes stupid
            gaffes like this (except maybe Carter, who measured every word so
            carefully that it took him forever to get his statements out, but was
            easy to expose as incompetent without this trick), and I have seen this
            technique used on every president since Reagan, but especially with
            Republicans. The books of stupid Clinton quotes are not in print
            anymore, but you can get a taste of them on this website:

            http://www.gargaro.com/clintonquotes.html

            A lot of the quotes just involve hypocrisy, but some of them are barely
            intelligible, and in some of them Clinton does things like repeatedly
            refer to a World War II airman as "she", the same kind of thing they
            send Bush up for. This is a trick used very frequently by enemies of
            various presidents, and it's dishonest. You can do it with literally
            anyone, because anyone talking off the cuff will stumble over his words
            from time to time.

            > Anyway, just wanted to say that I heard an excerpt from his (TV)
            > interview
            > with a Slovak radio journalist yesterday (the Slovak girl really
            > struggled
            > with ther questions) - he wasn't saying much (apart from Putin being
            > his
            > "close friend" and that it allowed GWB to say things to him in private
            > that
            > others might not say to him "Hey Vlad, how about killing less people
            > down
            > South and letting some international companies survive, huh??"),

            Are you claiming that's a quote from him, or is that something you made
            up? I assume the latter. Is there something wrong with asking Putin
            to kill fewer people and allow more economic freedom?

            > he was in a simplistic mode, grammar and colloqualism-wise, but I
            > don't blame him for
            > that seeing/hearing the Slovak girl struggle through her questions,
            > but what
            > he was saying was so bloody patronising that it made me grit my
            > teeth...

            Patronizing? Have you listened to Jacques Chirac? Or his ambassador
            to the UN? I don't think Bush has yet matched Chirac's reproach to the
            incoming EU members a couple years ago.

            I can't make any statement on what he said to the Slovak journalist,
            because I didn't hear it. It's possible, though, that her questions
            were naive.

            > he did manage to avoid saying Slovenia through the entire five minutes
            > that
            > Czech TV aired, though...

            Why didn't you just assume that he had never heard of Slovenia and was
            therefore too ignorant to make the mistake?

            > Just felt like some counter-propaganda to yours, Jamie, but no offence
            > (to
            > you or Dubbya) meant

            JK


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Terminus Technicus
            I m ... I don t think they discussed the weaponry setup with the Czech authorities in detail... let s just say we disagree on this point ... Based on the
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
              I'm
              > sorry you don't want security measures taken to protect our president,
              > and it may be all the same to you whether he gets murdered or not, but
              > if you don't care for the way it's done, you have to take that issue up
              > with your own political authorities.

              I don't think they discussed the weaponry setup with the Czech authorities
              in detail... let's just say we disagree on this point



              >
              > I didn't say it was due to BAD journalists. It's due to journalists
              > who know EXACTLY what they're doing, which is publishing raw, unedited
              > quotes in order to make him look stupid.

              Based on the Bushisms I've read (and the sheer number of them), I don't
              think it takes much to make him sound stupid and I definitely don't think
              that when someone says something like astronaut meaning a person that
              believes in star signs, a journalist should edit it into what it should
              be...

              >
              > Are you claiming that's a quote from him, or is that something you made
              > up? I assume the latter.

              Yep..

              Is there something wrong with asking Putin
              > to kill fewer people and allow more economic freedom?

              No, but there's something wrong in not mentioning it officially, playing
              friends and (supposedly) saying things to him in private based on which
              he'll never take any action and don't we all know it....


              > > he did manage to avoid saying Slovenia through the entire five minutes
              > > that
              > > Czech TV aired, though...
              >
              > Why didn't you just assume that he had never heard of Slovenia and was
              > therefore too ignorant to make the mistake?

              Well, he did say something along the lines of "It's great to be in Slovakia"
              when he WAS in Slovenia, and said so about ten times before someone managed
              to correct him a few years back!!!

              Klaus may not be stupid, but what he says and how he behaves since he's the
              Prez is really stupid, wonder what's better - to have a person that's a bit
              on the simple side (or lazy and can't be bothered as someone explained
              Dubbya's easy attitude to learning somewhere) and then a team of
              professionals to polish it all up where possible, or an obviously
              intelligent and learned person with the ego the size of known universe,
              whose team consists of a bunch of brown-nosers and only adds to whatever
              stupidity he utters... luckily we are a small country and Klaus is largerly
              ignored by everyone around... He did manage to finally persuade Bush to meet
              him (or so he says) in Brussels and squeezed onto the plane instead of "PM
              the five million apartment paid for by dirty money"... I'd like to hear the
              two of them talking, Klaus's English can be highly entertaining...

              M
            • Michael Gmail
              ... Odd you should say that. I don t intend this as a comment on Bush s intellectual abilities one way or another--at the very least he s obviously quite
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                On Feb 22, 2005, at 5:29 AM, James Kirchner wrote:

                > You can get into Harvard and Yale partly by family
                > connections (although family connections won't necessarily keep you in
                > those schools), but they don't just hand you the degree at the end of
                > the program.

                Odd you should say that. I don't intend this as a comment on Bush's
                intellectual abilities one way or another--at the very least he's
                obviously quite shrewd--but one of the big US middlebrow magazines--I
                think it might be Harper's--has an article this month that claims
                precisely that, once the author passed the admissions hurdle to
                Harvard, he managed quite easily to coast through it without any
                special exertion on his part or exceptional efforts on the university's
                part to see that he ended up with a strong education. I've seen
                references to it in several blogs but didn't pay too much attention and
                can't find it right now, but apparently it made a splash in some
                circles.

                Michael

                --
                <http://globalocal.blogspot.com/>

                It's not sinister. It's just marketing.
                - Jeff
              • James Kirchner
                ... I can t see how they wouldn t have cleared the security measures with the government of the host country, no matter what anyone says. And as for the people
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                  On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 06:55 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

                  >
                  >   I'm
                  > > sorry you don't want security measures taken to protect our
                  > president,
                  > > and it may be all the same to you whether he gets murdered or not,
                  > but
                  > > if you don't care for the way it's done, you have to take that issue
                  > up
                  > > with your own political authorities.
                  >
                  > I don't think they discussed the weaponry setup with the Czech
                  > authorities
                  > in detail... let's just say we disagree on this point

                  I can't see how they wouldn't have cleared the security measures with
                  the government of the host country, no matter what anyone says.

                  And as for the people who were moved out of their apartments, that's
                  just payback for every American tenant whose Czech landlord has
                  abruptly kicked him out for two weeks, with no rent reduction, in order
                  to make extra money by putting up tourists. ;-)

                  > > I didn't say it was due to BAD journalists.  It's due to journalists
                  > > who know EXACTLY what they're doing, which is publishing raw,
                  > unedited
                  > > quotes in order to make him look stupid.
                  >
                  > Based on the Bushisms I've read (and the sheer number of them),

                  Believe me, they've found equivalent ones from other presidents. As
                  for the sheer number, of them, there's never been a time in recent
                  decades when the Americans were so hysterically polarized, when so many
                  journalists were "out to get" a president, and when the extreme
                  elements of his opposition have been so well-funded. This includes
                  money to publish and distribute smear books even when they don't sell
                  well.

                  Part of this doesn't even have anything to do with Bush's policies per
                  se, but with the radical left having repackaged itself from Soviet
                  apologists to something else, whatever that might be, and getting more
                  assertive again. If we have a Democrat in the White House after Bush,
                  that guy's going to have problems with them too. These are the people,
                  for example, who force the state of Arizona to spend about half its
                  nature conservation budget on lawsuits.

                  > I don't think it takes much to make him sound stupid and I definitely
                  > don't think
                  > that when someone says something like astronaut meaning a person that
                  > believes in star signs, a journalist should edit it into what it should
                  > be...

                  People make slips like that all the time. I've made them. In fact,
                  some of the published Bushisms are things I've done myself, such as
                  using the Spanish instead of the English word for Hispanics, and
                  getting countries wrong when my mind is on something else. Years, ago,
                  after watching an ad-libbing announcer, whom I knew to be an
                  intelligent man, say one stupid thing after another over an hour, I
                  realized that the number of stupid things one says in public is
                  directly proportionate to the amount of off-the-cuff talking one has to
                  do in public, and the amount of it that gets into print depends
                  completely on the goodwill of the people noting it down.

                  And here in the US we have entire catalogues of quotes from people who
                  were highly effective at their work but whose mouths did not always say
                  what their brains were thinking. A man who built up one of the most
                  enormous, lucrative and influential Hollywood movie studios usually
                  gets a whole chapter to himself in books like this, because he
                  constantly said things like, "When I want your opinion I'll give it to
                  you!"

                  And what I was saying about Bush is that so many of his "enemies" work
                  so hard at making sure we get every one of those funny-sounding raw
                  quotes that we are surprised when we here him giving a speech and find
                  he speaks normally. And, as I said, they did the same thing with
                  Reagan, and it's now almost forgotten.

                  >   Is there something wrong with asking Putin
                  > > to kill fewer people and allow more economic freedom?
                  >
                  > No, but there's something wrong in not mentioning it officially,
                  > playing
                  > friends and (supposedly) saying things to him in private based on which
                  > he'll never take any action and don't we all know it....

                  This tour was obviously meant to appear to be a big love fest with
                  purported allies who have behaved as enemies of the US. That's clear,
                  and it's all over the media here, even the conservative media. I think
                  it's perfectly valid for a US president to glad hand a foreign leader
                  on TV while at the same time bawling him out for misbehavior in
                  private. And what about discussion of things that involve sensitive
                  intelligence data?

                  > > > he did manage to avoid saying Slovenia through the entire five
                  > minutes
                  > > > that
                  > > > Czech TV aired, though...
                  > >
                  > > Why didn't you just assume that he had never heard of Slovenia and
                  > was
                  > > therefore too ignorant to make the mistake?
                  >
                  > Well, he did say something along the lines of "It's great to be in
                  > Slovakia"
                  > when he WAS in Slovenia, and said so about ten times before someone
                  > managed
                  > to correct him a few years back!!!

                  President Carter chose a Polish interpreter who told crowds that he
                  wanted to have carnal knowledge of the Polish people, and things like
                  that. Every president does this kind of thing. Sad but true.

                  > Klaus may not be stupid, but what he says and how he behaves since
                  > he's the
                  > Prez is really stupid, wonder what's better - to have a person that's
                  > a bit
                  > on the simple side (or lazy and can't be bothered as someone explained
                  > Dubbya's easy attitude to learning somewhere) and then a team of
                  > professionals to polish it all up where possible, or an obviously
                  > intelligent and learned person with the ego the size of known universe,
                  > whose team consists of a bunch of  brown-nosers and only adds to
                  > whatever
                  > stupidity he utters... luckily we are a small country and Klaus is
                  > largerly
                  > ignored by everyone around... He did manage to finally persuade Bush
                  > to meet
                  > him (or so he says) in Brussels and squeezed onto the plane instead of
                  > "PM
                  > the five million apartment paid for by dirty money"... I'd like to
                  > hear the
                  > two of them talking, Klaus's English can be highly entertaining...

                  Klaus is probably the mini-version of what many Americans consider the
                  most odious type of European politician possible. The kind who thinks
                  that he was elected to be ruler over the less intelligent. Chirac's
                  the turbo version of that. Seems to me also that the office of
                  president was turned into a figurehead in the CR originally because
                  Havel had revealed himself to be such a political incompetent, due to
                  his philosophical and ideological purity. He was a better conscience
                  than he was a leader, and so they had to take real political power away
                  from him. Tell me if I'm wrong.

                  As an aside, I'd like to mention what happened in an ESL lesson I had
                  recently with a Betriebswirtschaft major who had just arrived from
                  Germany. She good-naturedly spouted every European cliché about
                  Americans ever conceived, and expected me to agree with them as truth.
                  The first one was that Americans "talk like they have a hot potato in
                  their mouths". As I good accent mimic, I proceeded to speak the way
                  the average person I heard on the street in London did. She did not
                  understand me. Then this conversation ensued:

                  German girl: "Americans don't know anything that goes on in the
                  outside world."
                  Me: "What's going on in Serbia right now?"
                  German girl: "Serbia?"
                  Me: "Yes."
                  German girl: [silence; blank face]
                  Me: "What's happening in Albania?"
                  German girl: "Well, that's just another small country!"
                  Me: "Then what's going on in Turkey?"
                  German girl [confidently]: "They want to get into the European Union!"
                  Me: "Well, yeah. Everybody knows that, but what's happened there in
                  the past week?"
                  German girl: [blank silence]

                  Jamie


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James Kirchner
                  ... On the other hand, I know personally someone who (closer to Bush s time there) was admitted to Harvard based on his father s connections and massive
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                    On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 08:53 AM, Michael Gmail wrote:

                    > On Feb 22, 2005, at 5:29 AM, James Kirchner wrote:
                    >
                    > > You can get into Harvard and Yale partly by family
                    > > connections (although family connections won't necessarily keep you
                    > in
                    > > those schools), but they don't just hand you the degree at the end of
                    > > the program.
                    >
                    > Odd you should say that. I don't intend this as a comment on Bush's
                    > intellectual abilities one way or another--at the very least he's
                    > obviously quite shrewd--but one of the big US middlebrow magazines--I
                    > think it might be Harper's--has an article this month that claims
                    > precisely that, once the author passed the admissions hurdle to
                    > Harvard, he managed quite easily to coast through it without any
                    > special exertion on his part or exceptional efforts on the university's
                    > part to see that he ended up with a strong education. I've seen
                    > references to it in several blogs but didn't pay too much attention and
                    > can't find it right now, but apparently it made a splash in some
                    > circles.

                    On the other hand, I know personally someone who (closer to Bush's time
                    there) was admitted to Harvard based on his father's connections and
                    massive donations to the school, and they flunked him out when he
                    didn't exert himself.

                    The truth must be somewhere in between.

                    Jamie



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Grant
                    ... Enemies ? That seems a bit harsh, even if you re talking about France, Germany, or post-election Spain. Expressing opposition to US policies and actions
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                      On Feb 22, 2005, at 8:04 AM, James Kirchner wrote:

                      > This tour was obviously meant to appear to be a big love fest with
                      > purported allies who have behaved as enemies of the US.

                      "Enemies"? That seems a bit harsh, even if you're talking about France,
                      Germany, or post-election Spain. Expressing opposition to US policies
                      and actions doesn't make them enemies. Or are you following the "for us
                      or against us" line?

                      Michael

                      --
                      <http://globalocal.blogspot.com>

                      Don't you feel that this politically correct belief that we have to
                      respect white people's feelings has stifled honest discussion and
                      debate?
                    • James Kirchner
                      ... No. Post-election Spain was not acting as an enemy. They just pulled out of the alliance in Iraq due to an al-Qaeda influence change in administration.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                        On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 09:20 AM, Michael Grant wrote:

                        > On Feb 22, 2005, at 8:04 AM, James Kirchner wrote:
                        >
                        > > This tour was obviously meant to appear to be a big love fest with
                        > > purported allies who have behaved as enemies of the US.
                        >
                        > "Enemies"? That seems a bit harsh, even if you're talking about France,
                        > Germany, or post-election Spain. Expressing opposition to US policies
                        > and actions doesn't make them enemies. Or are you following the "for us
                        > or against us" line?

                        No. Post-election Spain was not acting as an enemy. They just pulled
                        out of the alliance in Iraq due to an al-Qaeda influence change in
                        administration. That's their option; the Philippines did it too. (It
                        didn't seem to stop Islamic terrorists from operating in either
                        country, though.)

                        I don't subscribe to the "for us or against us" line. But I think in
                        particular the France under Chirac has done more than just verbally
                        express opposition and has actually acted in a damaging way, based
                        partly on profit motives that have come to light since access to the
                        Hussein government's records have been available.

                        Jamie


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • kzgafas
                        ... I would not rule out the possibility that this was exactly what his brain was thinking. ... This just confirms the above. You say it alone: ...enemies of
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > And here in the US we have entire catalogues of quotes from people
                          > who were highly effective at their work but whose mouths did not
                          > always say what their brains were thinking. A man who built up
                          > one of the most enormous, lucrative and influential Hollywood
                          > movie studios usually gets a whole chapter to himself in books
                          > like this, because he constantly said things like, "When I want
                          > your opinion I'll give it to you!"

                          I would not rule out the possibility that this was exactly what his
                          brain was thinking.


                          > This tour was obviously meant to appear to be a big love fest with
                          > purported allies who have behaved as enemies of the US. That's
                          > clear and it's all over the media here, even the conservative
                          > media.

                          This just confirms the above. You say it alone: "...enemies of the
                          US...it's all over the media here..."
                          Looks as someone wanted to give you your opinion, so you have it.

                          K.
                        • James Kirchner
                          ... Yes, like all Americans I am a completely robotic creation of the large corporations who own our media. Thank you for pointing that out. I promise to
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                            On Tuesday, February 22, 2005, at 09:41 AM, kzgafas wrote:

                            > > This tour was obviously meant to appear to be a big love fest with
                            > > purported allies who have behaved as enemies of the US.  That's
                            > > clear and it's all over the media here, even the conservative
                            > > media.
                            >
                            > This just confirms the above. You say it alone: "...enemies of the
                            > US...it's all over the media here..."
                            > Looks as someone wanted to give you your opinion, so you have it. 

                            Yes, like all Americans I am a completely robotic creation of the large
                            corporations who own our media. Thank you for pointing that out. I
                            promise to change, and by next week I'll be a Euro-elitist through and
                            through.

                            JK



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jsyeaton
                            It depends on which American people your wife has heard Bush addressing. Like with both Clinton and Gore - other national politicians from the South - his
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 22, 2005
                              It depends on which "American people" your wife has heard Bush
                              addressing. Like with both Clinton and Gore - other national
                              politicians from the South - his Texan accent tends to be stronger the
                              further South he goes. When making an important nationwide address,
                              he uses standard speech, when campaigning in the South, he relaxes
                              into a Texan style. (His brothers apparently all either avoided the
                              Texan drawl or rid themselves of it.)

                              Judy



                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "kzgafas" <kzgafas@t...> wrote:
                              >
                              > My wife has just commented (when listening to G. W. Bush at a press
                              > conference in Brussels) that he talks to the European audience in
                              > different English than when talking to "American people". (no
                              > midwestern accent, rather East-coast, resembling British)
                              >
                              > K.
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