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nomad + southern accent

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  • Hana Viansová
    Hi all, I have two questions today. One - I´m looking for a verb which indicates what Gypsies have always done - travel from place to place without a fixed
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
      Hi all,
      I have two questions today.
      One - I�m looking for a verb which indicates what Gypsies have always done - travel from place to place without a fixed place to live. What I�ve found so far carries the meaning (have a transient/nomadic lifestyle) but what I need is a verb ("Romove kocuji").
      Two - I had an American friend over and she, thinking I was the expert in everything concerning English language + history, asked what the origin of the southern drawl was. She found it strange as it so much differs from the original accent of those who first inhabited those parts. Any insights on this?

      Thanks a lot
      Hanka


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael Grant
      ... To roam or to rove? ... I assume you re referring to the American South, not southern England? I ve read that it has to do with African influence, though
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
        On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:46:56 +0100, Hana Viansová <bebeebeee@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        > I have two questions today.
        > One - I´m looking for a verb which indicates what Gypsies have always done - travel from place to place without a fixed place to live. What I´ve found so far carries the meaning (have a transient/nomadic lifestyle) but what I need is a verb ("Romove kocuji").

        To roam or to rove?


        > Two - I had an American friend over and she, thinking I was the expert in everything concerning English language + history, asked what the origin of the southern drawl was. She found it strange as it so much differs from the original accent of those who first inhabited those parts. Any insights on this?

        I assume you're referring to the American South, not southern England?
        I've read that it has to do with African influence, though I'm
        skeptical since Black English has quite a few distinguishing features
        of its own. Jamie probably knows something about this.

        Michael

        --
        "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
        - Franz Kafka
      • Helga Listen
        Ahoj Hanko, Slovo ktere hledas je v NJ (herum)zigeunern a kdyz jsem se trochu rozhlidla, jsem nasla 11 odkazu na googlu podle kterych, bys mozna mohla pouzivat
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
          Ahoj Hanko,
          Slovo ktere hledas je v NJ (herum)zigeunern a kdyz jsem se trochu rozhlidla,
          jsem nasla 11 odkazu na googlu podle kterych, bys mozna mohla pouzivat "to
          gypsy around".
          H.
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Hana Viansová [mailto:bebeebeee@...]
          Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 6:47 PM
          To: Czechlist
          Subject: [Czechlist] nomad + southern accent


          Hi all,
          I have two questions today.
          One - I´m looking for a verb which indicates what Gypsies have always done
          - travel from place to place without a fixed place to live. What I´ve found
          so far carries the meaning (have a transient/nomadic lifestyle) but what I
          need is a verb ("Romove kocuji").
          Two - I had an American friend over and she, thinking I was the expert in
          everything concerning English language + history, asked what the origin of
          the southern drawl was. She found it strange as it so much differs from the
          original accent of those who first inhabited those parts. Any insights on
          this?

          Thanks a lot
          Hanka
        • Hana Viansová
          Diky, to je zajimave, jen by asi znelo divne rict Gypsies have gypsied around for centuries :-))). Stejne diky moc. Nevis nahodou jak s temi vyhledavaci
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
            Diky, to je zajimave, jen by asi znelo divne rict "Gypsies have gypsied
            around for centuries" :-))). Stejne diky moc. Nevis nahodou jak s temi
            vyhledavaci (psala jsem o tom hned v nasledujicim mailu?)
            Zdravim
            Hanka


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
            To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 8:59 PM
            Subject: RE: [Czechlist] nomad + southern accent



            Ahoj Hanko,
            Slovo ktere hledas je v NJ (herum)zigeunern a kdyz jsem se trochu rozhlidla,
            jsem nasla 11 odkazu na googlu podle kterych, bys mozna mohla pouzivat "to
            gypsy around".
            H.
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Hana Viansová [mailto:bebeebeee@...]
            Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 6:47 PM
            To: Czechlist
            Subject: [Czechlist] nomad + southern accent


            Hi all,
            I have two questions today.
            One - I´m looking for a verb which indicates what Gypsies have always done
            - travel from place to place without a fixed place to live. What I´ve found
            so far carries the meaning (have a transient/nomadic lifestyle) but what I
            need is a verb ("Romove kocuji").
            Two - I had an American friend over and she, thinking I was the expert in
            everything concerning English language + history, asked what the origin of
            the southern drawl was. She found it strange as it so much differs from the
            original accent of those who first inhabited those parts. Any insights on
            this?

            Thanks a lot
            Hanka





            Czechlist resources:
            http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

            Obcasnik:
            http://zehrovak.bloguje.cz
            Yahoo! Groups Links








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          • melvyn.geo
            ... I think you ll find this idea is conveyed more often by a phrase (or at least a phrasal verb) than a single word. Fronek s suggestion lead a nomadic life
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
              Hana wrote:
              > I´m looking for a verb which indicates what Gypsies have always done
              > - travel from place to place without a fixed place to live. What I´ve found
              > so far carries the meaning (have a transient/nomadic lifestyle) but what I
              > need is a verb ("Romove kocuji").


              I think you'll find this idea is conveyed more often by a phrase (or at least a phrasal verb) than a single word. Fronek's suggestion 'lead a nomadic life' might be good for describing the big picture, while 'lead an itinerant life/lifestyle' might be heard in more mundane bureaucratic and journalistic language. If you really insist on a single word (but why??), Michael's 'rove' and 'roam' are fine, or you might simply consider 'travel' (groups of itinerants are often referred to in the British press as 'travellers', whether they are Roma, tinkers, hippies or whatever, and your phrase 'travel [about] from place to place' sounds to me like a perfectly natural way of rendering 'kocovat') or how about 'wander' ('wander from place to place' sounds fine to me) or Fronek's 'migrate'?


              > Two - I had an American friend over and she, thinking I was the expert in
              > everything concerning English language + history,

              Well, you are.

              >asked what the origin of
              > the southern drawl was. She found it strange as it so much differs from the
              > original accent of those who first inhabited those parts. Any insights on
              > this?
              >

              I am not very insightful when it comes to American dialects but in amongst all the theories on the subject involving inbreeding and bad oral hygiene I found the following interesting ideas:


              http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test3materials/AmericanDialects.htm

              From 1642-1675 the Royalists, also called Cavaliers, fled from the south and southwest England with their indentured servants and settled in Virginia when the English Civil War against Charles I began. They brought with them their south England drawl (a drawing out of the vowels);

              NOT VERY ACCURATE HISTORICALLY (THE DATING IS WAY OUT)BUT OTHERWISE NOT A TOTALLY BAD THEORY IMHO - SOUTHERN ENGLISH UPPER CLASS ACCENTS DO HAVE SOME SIMILAR VOWELS - BUT THEN A LITTLE FURTHER DOWN I READ:

              Most linguists today believe these features derive from the influence of the speech patterns of the Africans brought to the 13 colonies as slaves between 1619 and 1808, when the slave trade was prohibited. This would include the southern drawl.

              BUT:

              http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2==ind0007a&L=%c2%ads-l&D==1&F==&S==&P=u53

              I find it interesting that the first explanation that is suggested is "African-American slave influence." Caribbean English varieties don't have a drawl, nor do West African varieties. Ah! the "black nanny myth" again.

              Salikoko S. Mufwene
              University of Chicago
              Department of Linguistics

              In any case, 'drawl' is probably a contentious description amongst linguists.


              BR

              Melvyn
              ---
              We used to sing this song at primary school:

              Three gypsies stood at the castle gate. They sang so high, they sang so low.
              The lady sate in her chamber late. Her heart it melted away as snow.

              They sang so sweet, they sang so shrill. That fast her tears began to flow
              And she lay down her silken gown, her golden rings and all her show.

              She took it off her high-heeled shoes, a-made of Spanish leather-O
              She would in the street in her bare, bare feet, all out in the wind and weather-O.

              Saddle to me my milk white steed and go and fetch me my pony-O
              That I may ride and seek my bride who's gone with the wraggle taggle gypsies-O!

              He rode high and he rode low, he rode through woods and copses too
              Until he came to an open field and there he espied his a-lady-O.

              "What makes you leave your house and land, your golden treasures for to go?
              What makes you leave your new wedded lord, to follow the wraggle taggle gypsies-O?"

              "What care I for my house and land? What care I for my treasures-O?
              What care I for my new wedded lord? I'm off with the wraggle taggle gypsies-O!"

              "Last night you slept on a goose-feathered bed, with the sheet turned down so bravely-O.
              Tonight you sleep in a cold open field along with the wraggle taggle gypsies-O!"

              "What care I for the goose-feathered bed with the sheet turned down so bravely-O?
              Tonight I shall sleep in a cold open field along with the wraggle taggle gypsies-O!"
            • James Kirchner
              ... However, my instinct tells me that we wouldn t use that expression when talking about what a real gypsy does. Usually (at least in songs, and surely in
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
                On Saturday, November 6, 2004, at 02:59 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                > Slovo ktere hledas je v NJ (herum)zigeunern a kdyz jsem se trochu
                > rozhlidla,
                > jsem nasla 11 odkazu na googlu podle kterych, bys mozna mohla pouzivat
                > "to
                > gypsy around".

                However, my instinct tells me that we wouldn't use that expression when
                talking about what a real gypsy does. Usually (at least in songs, and
                surely in much speech) we say that gypsies "roam", "ramble", "bum", etc.

                As for the "Southern Accent", which accent are you talking about?

                There are three main dialect bands that cross the east of the US. The
                Northern dialect fades out at a line running through southern
                Pennsylvania, and the middles of Ohio, Indiana and Illinois. Anything
                between that and a line running along approximately the southern
                borders of Virginia, Tennessee, Missouri and probably part of Arkansas
                is the Midlands dialect. In an ark from the top of the Carolinas over
                to Mississippi (not counting Florida) is the Southern dialect. The
                people in "The South" don't all talk the same. The dialect in Texas is
                not southern, but an outgrowth of the Midlands accent, because as
                southern settlers moved west, they ran into "Indian trouble" in
                Mississippi, and their migration stopped. Louisiana was settled by
                French-speaking Acadians (ancestors of the Cajuns) coming from Canada
                and by people sailing in from the Gulf, so its speech is not southern.
                Texas was settled by people moving west and south from Tennessee and
                Kentucky, so they don't have what is classified as a "Southern" accent.
                And remember, that they're different. The accent in Mississippi is
                very dissimilar to the one in Kentucky, for example.

                Your friend is actually wrong that the speech in those "southern"
                regions is different from the original English that was imported there.
                People make the mistake of thinking that the original English settlers
                to North America spoke something like Queen Elizabeth or the BBC, or a
                Shakespearean theater troupe. In reality, that accent did not exist
                yet at the time America was colonized, and so American pronunciation
                (and often grammatical forms and vocabulary) reflect the language of
                England at the time of settlement. Did you ever wonder, for example,
                why RP speakers write a word like "far" with an R even though they
                pronounce no R? That's because they used to pronounce those R's in
                England. After English was firmly planted on American soil, a new
                "R-dropping" pronunciation started spreading through England in
                concentric circles from somewhere around London, and spread through
                most of the country. (Look at a map that shows where the English
                pronounce all their R's, and you'll see that it's more or less a circle
                along the edge.) The reason New England speech is more similar to
                modern British speech is not because the pronunciation in New England
                is older, but because it is *newer*. People on the East Coast still
                had frequent contact with England -- and many sent their kids to school
                there -- so they picked up the changes that were happening in the UK,
                whereas the people further inland didn't have that contact, and they
                retained the older pronunciation. As one scholar put it in a book I
                have somewhere, "Americans go to England because they want to hear a
                Shakespeare play performed in the 'original' accent, but they'd do
                better if they stayed home and saw it at their local high school."

                The British crown granted to the colonies all the lands directly to the
                west, and this is why the dialects spread across in three horizontal
                bands across half the continent. The pronunciation, grammar and
                vocabulary of the Northern, Midlands and Southern areas actually do
                reflect the speech that was originally planted there from England. As
                I said, the standard English of that time was not like today's. Plus,
                the settlers came from many different regions of England, Scotland,
                Ireland, etc., and so there was liable to be much more Scots-Irish
                English, or Yorkshire English, for example, than aristocratic English.
                (The grammar and vocabulary of vernacular black speech in the US has a
                huge amount of influence from Irish dialects, for example.)

                Even with all this, there have been sound changes, but nobody knows
                what causes those in any country. They just seem to occur
                spontaneously, and even now there is a major vowel shift occurring in
                the northern US and a different one in the South. Nobody has actually
                proven credibly that southern English was heavily influenced by black
                speech, as far as I'm concerned, and a lot of the literature you read
                on it compares today's black and Southern speech with current standard
                English, which is a bogus comparison. I consider those claims to be
                like one I saw on TV a couple years ago that said that meat is often
                fried in deep oil in Africa, and therefore "it may be" that fried
                chicken came to America from Africa. (So how did it get to China?)

                Jamie
              • James Kirchner
                ... Nearly every feature (other than some vocabulary) that some people claim was carried into Southern US English from West African languages can be explained
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 6, 2004
                  From the website Melvyn recommended:

                  > Main features carried over from West African languages.

                  Nearly every feature (other than some vocabulary) that some people
                  claim was carried into Southern US English from West African languages
                  can be explained by features in some dialect of English in the UK or
                  Ireland that was actually greatly present in the American south.

                  > --No use of the linking verb 'to be' or generalization of one form
                  > for it.
                  >
                  > --emphasis on aspect rather than tense: He workin' (right now) vs.
                  > He be workin'. This is found in many West African languages.

                  This is also found in many older forms of UK and especially Irish
                  English, and people speaking those dialects were liable to be working
                  side by side with or supervising slaves during the formative period of
                  southern English, and it is believed my many scholars that the slaves
                  picked this up. Whites who speak with this feature now would more than
                  likely have just inherited it from the speech of their ancestors.

                  The so-called "continuous 'be'" is not as common in certain areas,
                  particularly in the Caribbean, as the construction "does be". This
                  difference has been traced to the regions from which the Irish
                  predominantly migrated. Irish people who said, "He be working," would
                  have migrated to one place, and those who said, "He does be working,"
                  would wind up in another region. This is not a farfetched idea,
                  because today, after all, Chaldeans are seldom to be found anywhere in
                  the US but in Detroit and San Diego. It's rare to hear a Czech name in
                  Detroit (only Polish and Slovak names), but many Czechs went to Chicago
                  and Texas. So, it's conceivable that Irish people moved where their
                  friends and family had settled and prospered.

                  > --I done gone (from Wolof doon , the completive verb aspect particle +
                  > English 'done').

                  Well, someone says so, but it seems to me (without looking at my
                  reference books) that this form was and is common in some UK dialects
                  and may go back as far as Middle English. This would indicate it came
                  here from the UK.

                  > --Regularization of present tense verb conjugation: He don't, he know
                  > it.

                  Bullshit. That regularization of the verb paradigm is a tendency all
                  over the world, and it happened in Swedish over the past century or so
                  without West African influence. And many people have also done this in
                  the UK for centuries. I would be amazed if that feature were not
                  brought here from the British Isles.

                  > --voiced th in initial position becomes d: dis, dey; in medial
                  > position it becomes v: brother > brovva. final voiceless th = f
                  > with =wif

                  Yes! Exactly the problem with which native English speakers in London
                  torment their school teachers. This likely also came here from the UK.

                  One time, when teaching an American dialects course, I found the
                  students too gullible about this theory of West African influence --
                  and not even willing to look at the alternative theories -- so I spent
                  about 15 minutes using the same sort of scattershot methods and iffy
                  evidence to "prove" that African American English is mainly derived
                  from Russian. It's similar to saying that fried chicken came to the US
                  from Africa because Africans fry chicken.

                  Jamie
                • Tertech
                  No to bych v oficialnim textu rozhodne nepouzil, definitelly un-PC, bordering on racist... to ... M
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 7, 2004
                    No to bych v oficialnim textu rozhodne nepouzil, definitelly un-PC,
                    bordering on racist...
                    "to
                    > gypsy around".
                    > H.


                    M
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