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Re: [Czechlist] Off-topic: Czech view of Bush

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  • James Kirchner
    ... I can t tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back an interesting memory. A friend of mine who graduated from the gymnazium around 1988
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
      On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 02:09 PM, Michael Grant wrote:

      > Just curious--what's the general Czech perception of the Bush regime,
      > excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an "Old Europe" or
      > "New Europe" view? Or somewhere in between, or do they not really
      > care?

      I can't tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back an
      interesting memory. A friend of mine who graduated from the gymnazium
      around 1988 told me a few years ago that a downward age gap of just
      three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
      tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties. Or as he put it,
      "All it takes is an age difference of three years, and the kids think
      like real idiots, just like in Germany."

      If you're interested, I can also tell you that my many Iraqi friends
      here -- who still have close family in Baghdad -- were rooting for Bush
      and called me to say how ecstatic they were when he won. In the
      Detroit area, with its famously huge Arab population, I have met many
      Syrians, Lebanese, Yemenis, etc., who are angry about the war and hate
      Bush, but virtually every Iraqi I've ever met claims to be grateful for
      the intervention and thinks that the bloodshed is a necessary tradeoff,
      even if their own family member gets killed. I even see pro-Bush,
      anti-Saddam bumper stickers on the cars of veiled Muslim women. (Make
      any conjecture you want.) The only thing they claim was done wrong was
      that the borders were not sealed after the takeover. (I personally
      believe that that was a deliberate strategy, but who knows.)

      And, if it comes back on, be sure to watch the History Channel
      documentary "Nazi Guerillas", about the Allied occupation from 1945 to
      1948. It's very pertinent to what's happening now.

      Jamie


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Kirchner
      ... Do you mean the terrorist attacks on 9/11 or the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 ? If you mean the latter, plenty of people here have seen it, but the Europeans
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
        On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 03:33 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

        > Has there no one seen 9/11 in those states????? 

        Do you mean the terrorist attacks on 9/11 or the movie "Fahrenheit
        9/11"? If you mean the latter, plenty of people here have seen it, but
        the Europeans probably have not seen the video "Fahrenhype 9/11", in
        which a former Clinton adviser and other commentators dissect the lies
        and cinematic tricks Michael Moore used in that movie (which are
        similar to the ones he used in other films). After the movie came out,
        the film was deconstructed lie for lie and trick for trick on news
        shows and in books that the Europeans either don't have access to or
        (in many cases) can't understand. It's the usual problem I often
        complain about, which is that masses of nutty media are translated and
        circulated in Europe, whether the teachings of the Baghwan Sri
        Razhneesh or the political comedies of Michael Moore, but the media
        that refute them are never translated. Europeans therefore don't have
        the ability to judge things that go on in the US based on balanced
        input.

        Example: Moore does an ambush interview with a member of Congress and
        asks him if he would send his own child to fight in Iraq. The senator
        thought for a little while and then gave a very thoughtful response
        that mentioned that his own chlidren were now too old to be sent, but
        that members of the next generation of his family were there fighting.
        After answering the question, the legislator had to get into the
        capital because there was some important vote going on, so he excused
        himself and ran into the building. This is what was witnessed by
        people who were there. Moore cut the scene up, so that he showed
        himself asking the question, then the legislator thinking and running
        into the capitol building. The viewer was obviously supposed to get
        the phony impression that the man couldn't answer the question and just
        ran away. Moore uses this type of deceptive editing frequently.

        Moore does this in other films. In Bowling for Columbine, he gives the
        world the impression that in the US you can go to a bank and get a free
        shotgun just for opening an account. That scene is actually completely
        fictional -- it was staged with "actors". It couldn't happen. Any
        bank just handing over shotguns like that would be shut down very
        quickly, because the legal acquisition of a gun here requires a
        criminal background check and a 45-day waiting period before delivery.

        > Do they really think Mr. Bushes moral is that high and honest????

        Some people do, and some people don't. I saw this election this way:
        It was mainly an ideological battle between people who were imprinted
        in the '60s hippie era (which is where I think many Czechs' brains are
        also stuck), and those who think the economic, social and moral beliefs
        of that time have not worked (which they haven't). There was more to
        it than just the war in Iraq. Kerry offered solutions to social issues
        that were basically retreads of the failed ideas of the 1960s, and he
        never enunciated workable plans for anything.

        Example: The education system has completely degenerated in many parts
        of the US. A European who came into my classrooms would be stunned at
        the simple things that American 18-year-olds don't know. (I frequently
        run into kids who don't know where Ontario is, even though it's only 20
        minutes away from their house. And forget expecting them to recognize
        what a noun is.) Bush has tried to work out a strategy to fix the
        problem (Senator Ted Kennedy helped write the bill). It's very
        imperfect, and it's not funded right, but even a lot of people who
        complain about it claim it's at least a better alternative than the
        Democrats' former strategy of just pumping more and more money into
        corrupt schools without demanding any accountability. Kerry was pretty
        much offering the old strategy.

        Another thing that appealed to many Americans about Bush's plan was
        that he wanted to reform the system that allows those crazy lawsuits
        that Europeans think are so funny. They now take up 2.5% of GNP, and
        are massively increasing the cost of healthcare and often of running a
        business. In some states the problem is so bad that they have trouble
        getting obstetricians and other specialists to practice there. Kerry
        offered a government health plan without reform of this system of tort
        lawsuits, and he even chose a tort lawyer as his running mate. This
        promised that the problem was never going to change.

        So, you see, it wasn't all the war or moral issues, but as the European
        press would like people to think.

        And I doubt it helped when Osama bin Laden popped up on TV to endorse
        John Kerry and was basically saying all the same things that John Kerry
        and Michael Moore had been saying for months.

        You should also know that when Americans have a choice between a
        president they're not crazy about but can predict, and a challenger
        they're also not crazy about and can't predict, they'll take the
        predictable guy.

        > When are you going to move to civilization???

        Civilization??? In the past 100 years, Europe has had several
        genocidal dictators who, combined, massacred at least 30 million
        people. Usually the "civilized" powers discuss with the despots and
        act like gentlemen until it's too late, and then they ask the US to get
        their guys killed to fix a problem Europe didn't do anything about.
        Europe is not as civilized it would appear in the self-flattering minds
        of many Europeans.

        Jamie


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Petr Jarolím
        Has any of you read Zeme pod sochou svobody (Dejiny USA, jak je nezname) by Joachim Fernau (for Helga: Halleluja, Die Geschichte der USA). Some opinions of
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
          Has any of you read Zeme pod sochou svobody (Dejiny USA, jak je nezname)
          by Joachim Fernau (for Helga: Halleluja, Die Geschichte der USA).
          Some opinions of that guy are a bit extremistic but give rather
          interesting background information (the perception of the U.S. all over
          the world, reasons for "americanism" and "anti-americanism"). It is
          worth reading it!
          best regards
          Hana
        • ing.Sarka Rubkova
          Ahoj, Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do cestiny? Sarka
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
            Ahoj,

            Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do cestiny?

            Sarka
          • James Kirchner
            ... It can help also to read a history of the US by someone who understands how most Americans really think. One I would suggest is A History of the American
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
              On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 02:46 AM, Petr Jarolím wrote:

              > Has any of you read Zeme pod sochou svobody (Dejiny USA, jak je
              > nezname)
              > by Joachim Fernau (for Helga: Halleluja, Die Geschichte der USA).
              > Some opinions of that guy are a bit extremistic but give rather
              > interesting background information (the perception of the U.S. all over
              > the world, reasons for "americanism" and "anti-americanism"). It is
              > worth reading it!

              It can help also to read a history of the US by someone who understands
              how most Americans really think. One I would suggest is "A History of
              the American People" by Paul Johnson. He also wrote a very interesting
              book called "Intellectuals", which does a fascinating job of
              introducing intellectuals of the past few centuries who claimed to be
              working for the benefit of all humanity but were extremely destructive
              to the actual flesh-and-blood humans in their lives.

              Jamie


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Kirchner
              ... I think you translate it Lorem Ipsum. These are the first two words of the standard phony text used in sample layouts when the real text to be used is not
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 07:42 AM, ing.Sarka Rubkova wrote:

                > Ahoj,
                >
                > Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do
                > cestiny?

                I think you translate it Lorem Ipsum. These are the first two words of
                the standard phony text used in sample layouts when the real text to be
                used is not available yet. It can be called "placeholder text", and in
                the ad agencies, if I remember correctly, we called it "Greek type",
                leading to the verb "to greek in". If you "greek a column in", that
                means to fill it with that placeholder text. This text is frequently
                included in standard page layout programs now, but in the days of
                cardboard and glue, you used to be able to buy sheets of it for dummy
                layouts.

                For more information, see this site: http://www.lipsum.com/

                Jamie


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jaroslav Hejzlar
                Tomu, o cem tady mluvi Jamie, se myslim rika slepy text . Jarda ... From: James Kirchner [mailto:jpklists@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 1:57
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                  Tomu, o cem tady mluvi Jamie, se myslim rika "slepy text".
                  Jarda

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: James Kirchner [mailto:jpklists@...]
                  Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 1:57 PM
                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] RE: [Lorem ipsum



                  On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 07:42 AM, ing.Sarka Rubkova wrote:

                  > Ahoj,
                  >
                  > Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do
                  > cestiny?

                  I think you translate it Lorem Ipsum. These are the first two words of
                  the standard phony text used in sample layouts when the real text to be
                  used is not available yet. It can be called "placeholder text", and in
                  the ad agencies, if I remember correctly, we called it "Greek type",
                  leading to the verb "to greek in". If you "greek a column in", that
                  means to fill it with that placeholder text. This text is frequently
                  included in standard page layout programs now, but in the days of
                  cardboard and glue, you used to be able to buy sheets of it for dummy
                  layouts.

                  For more information, see this site: http://www.lipsum.com/

                  Jamie


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  Czechlist resources:
                  http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                  Obcasnik:
                  http://zehrovak.bloguje.cz
                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • janvanek
                  ... regime, ... Trying to keep as ontopic as possible (so I WON T post a great argument about a question discussed here before :-), I d put it Old Europe /
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grant <mgrant@g...> wrote:

                    > Just curious--what's the general Czech perception of the Bush
                    regime,
                    > excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an "Old Europe" or
                    > "New Europe" view? Or somewhere in between, or do they not really
                    > care?

                    Trying to keep as ontopic as possible (so I WON'T post a great
                    argument about a question discussed here before :-), I'd put it Old
                    Europe / inbetween / do not care. In my limited experience, you will
                    of course find all types in online flamewars, but the pro-Bush part
                    seems smaller in absolute numbers and containing bigger proportion of
                    outright cranks.

                    There is an overview of various Czech polls I wasn't even aware of at
                    http://stealthisurl.blogspot.com/2004/11/of-course-hell-lose-
                    electoral-college.html

                    --
                    Jan Vanek jr.
                  • James Kirchner
                    People overseas who think that the north went for Kerry and that the south voted for Bush might find this map interesting. It gives a county-by-county
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                      People overseas who think that the north went for Kerry and that the
                      south voted for Bush might find this map interesting. It gives a
                      county-by-county breakdown of the election results. The map is
                      practically all red, indicating that, at least geographically, most
                      localities voted for Bush, while certain, mostly urban areas went for
                      Kerry. My own state is depicted on most maps as having "gone for
                      Kerry", but in fact only a tiny geographic portion of the state showed
                      a majority for him. You can click and compare the map to the 2000
                      results, which show a similar, but not as complete pattern.

                      http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

                      Jamie
                    • batoun@yahoo.com
                      Jamie That s one depressing picture! Petr ... http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm ... __________________________________ Do
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                        Jamie

                        That's one depressing picture!

                        Petr

                        --- James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                        > People overseas who think that the north went for
                        > Kerry and that the
                        > south voted for Bush might find this map
                        > interesting. It gives a
                        > county-by-county breakdown of the election results.
                        > The map is
                        > practically all red, indicating that, at least
                        > geographically, most
                        > localities voted for Bush, while certain, mostly
                        > urban areas went for
                        > Kerry. My own state is depicted on most maps as
                        > having "gone for
                        > Kerry", but in fact only a tiny geographic portion
                        > of the state showed
                        > a majority for him. You can click and compare the
                        > map to the 2000
                        > results, which show a similar, but not as complete
                        > pattern.
                        >
                        >
                        http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm
                        >
                        > Jamie
                        >
                        >




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                      • Michael Grant
                        On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:13 -0800 (PST), batoun@yahoo.com ... Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase red scare , doesn t it? The thing to remember is that,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                          On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:13 -0800 (PST), batoun@...
                          <batoun@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > That's one depressing picture!

                          Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "red scare", doesn't it? The
                          thing to remember is that, although the blue flecks (we're the one
                          sitting there by itself in the middle of Texas) may make up only a
                          small fraction of the land area, they do represent 48% of the voting
                          population.

                          Michael

                          --
                          "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                          - Franz Kafka
                        • Radovan Pletka
                          ... From: Helga Listen Subject: RE: Off-topic: Czech view of Bush Hallo Michael, Well, my view may not be entirely Czech, but I can
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                            >>>
                            From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
                            Subject: RE: Off-topic: Czech view of Bush

                            Hallo Michael,
                            Well, my view may not be entirely Czech, but I can tell you that I've been
                            watching CNN until 2:30 in the morning, hoping and praying - with no
                            success.<<<<


                            ConvolutedNotrelevantNonsense - give me a break (-:
                            This is the problem, you watch absolutely biased news, which are worse than communist propaganda was.
                            With communists you knew you were fed shit, because it tasted like shit.
                            With liberal media you are fed shit which makes you feel good, so you think its good, but it is still shit.
                            I know what I am talking about - I have PhD in journalism from communist university.
                            One of old professors told us once:
                            Z hovna bic neupletes
                            A kdyz upletes, tak nezapraskas
                            A i kdybys zapraskal, tak te to posere.
                            If you Czech is not good enough to get this, ask for translation - somebody here can do that well, I am sure.
                            There is no unbiased news source about US in the whole Europe, unles you are able to listen to US talk radio.
                            British BBC is as biased bunch of liberals as anybody else.
                            So listen to both for some time, make an independent, unbiased opinion and than you will see that 51% of Americans may be like Busch - much smarter than everybody else and media think (-:
                            Unles you like the taste of shit, which feels good, which seems to be European favored flavor of the month for many years now (-:
                            In this case please delete this shit (-:
                          • batoun@yahoo.com
                            I haven t been this depressed since 9/11, and I didn t even vote (though in the US since 1986, I am still just Czech citizen). But people of this great place -
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
                              I haven't been this depressed since 9/11, and I didn't
                              even vote (though in the US since 1986, I am still
                              just Czech citizen). But people of this great place -
                              New York hadn't voted s. Bush back in anyway.


                              --- Michael Grant <mgrant@...> wrote:

                              > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:13 -0800 (PST),
                              > batoun@...
                              > <batoun@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > That's one depressing picture!
                              >
                              > Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "red scare",
                              > doesn't it? The
                              > thing to remember is that, although the blue flecks
                              > (we're the one
                              > sitting there by itself in the middle of Texas) may
                              > make up only a
                              > small fraction of the land area, they do represent
                              > 48% of the voting
                              > population.
                              >
                              > Michael
                              >
                              > --
                              > "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht
                              > f�r uns."
                              > - Franz Kafka
                              >




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                            • Michael Grant
                              On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:12:37 -0500, James Kirchner ... Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please. Michael -- Aber ja! Es gibt
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
                                On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:12:37 -0500, James Kirchner
                                <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I can't tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back an
                                > interesting memory. A friend of mine who graduated from the gymnazium
                                > around 1988 told me a few years ago that a downward age gap of just
                                > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.

                                Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please.

                                Michael


                                --
                                "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                - Franz Kafka
                              • James Kirchner
                                ... Of course I wasn t claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists. Please. Next you re going to accuse me of claiming Jacques Chirac is a Stalinist.
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
                                  On Saturday, November 6, 2004, at 03:04 PM, Michael Grant wrote:

                                  > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:12:37 -0500, James Kirchner
                                  > <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I can't tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back
                                  > an
                                  > > interesting memory.  A friend of mine who graduated from the
                                  > gymnazium
                                  > > around 1988 told me a few years ago that a downward age gap of just
                                  > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                  > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                  >
                                  > Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please.

                                  Of course I wasn't claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists.
                                  Please. Next you're going to accuse me of claiming Jacques Chirac is a
                                  Stalinist. (The educated Iraqis I know have many other adjectives for
                                  him, but Stalinist is not one of them.)

                                  MTV people have their own weird ideology and perception of the world
                                  that I don't feel like outlining on this list. I will say, though,
                                  that for many years it has bothered me that MTV tends to treat people
                                  of darker-skinned races more like mascots than like full human beings,
                                  provided they are not stars.

                                  Jamie


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Michael Grant
                                  On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:27:13 -0500, James Kirchner ... Your friend seems to have been--unless I m completely missing the point of that quote? Michael -- Aber
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
                                    On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:27:13 -0500, James Kirchner
                                    <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                    > > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                    > >
                                    > > Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please.
                                    >
                                    > Of course I wasn't claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists.

                                    Your friend seems to have been--unless I'm completely missing the
                                    point of that quote?

                                    Michael

                                    --
                                    "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                    - Franz Kafka
                                  • James Kirchner
                                    ... How do you get directly from lefty all the way to Stalinist? It doesn t seem to me that saying someone is leftist is the same as saying they are a
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
                                      On Sunday, November 7, 2004, at 12:12 AM, Michael Grant wrote:

                                      > On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:27:13 -0500, James Kirchner
                                      > <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                      > > > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are.
                                      > Please.
                                      > >
                                      > > Of course I wasn't claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists.
                                      >
                                      > Your friend seems to have been--unless I'm completely missing the
                                      > point of that quote?

                                      How do you get directly from "lefty" all the way to Stalinist? It
                                      doesn't seem to me that saying someone is leftist is the same as saying
                                      they are a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

                                      Jamie

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Michael Grant
                                      On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:18:48 -0500, James Kirchner ... Communist tyranny --maybe I just mistook the point of the whole comment. Michael -- Aber ja! Es gibt
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
                                        On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:18:48 -0500, James Kirchner
                                        <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > > > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                        > > > > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                        >
                                        > How do you get directly from "lefty" all the way to Stalinist? It
                                        > doesn't seem to me that saying someone is leftist is the same as saying
                                        > they are a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

                                        "Communist tyranny"--maybe I just mistook the point of the whole comment.

                                        Michael

                                        --
                                        "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                        - Franz Kafka
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