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Off-topic: Czech view of Bush

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  • Michael Grant
    Just curious--what s the general Czech perception of the Bush regime, excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an Old Europe or New Europe view? Or
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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      Just curious--what's the general Czech perception of the Bush regime,
      excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an "Old Europe" or
      "New Europe" view? Or somewhere in between, or do they not really
      care?

      Michael
    • Jirka Bolech
      ... Bloody job!
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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        > prisel mi mail, kde se pan jednatel s.r.o. nechava na vizitce anglicky
        > titulovat "Executioner"...

        Bloody job!
      • Zemedelec@aol.com
        Q.: Where did King Charles executioner dine, and what did he eat? A.: He took a chop at the King s Head. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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          Q.: Where did King Charles' executioner dine, and what did he eat?

          A.: He took a chop at the King's Head.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Helga Listen
          Hallo Michael, Well, my view may not be entirely Czech, but I can tell you that I ve been watching CNN until 2:30 in the morning, hoping and praying - with no
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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            Hallo Michael,
            Well, my view may not be entirely Czech, but I can tell you that I've been
            watching CNN until 2:30 in the morning, hoping and praying - with no
            success. And I know of quite some Czech friends who did the same.
            When looking at the statistics I still cannot believe that there are
            actually two totally different societies in this countrie. It never was so
            clear to me, that the bible belt was so powerful (and stupid). Has there no
            one seen 9/11 in those states????? Do they really think Mr. Bushes moral is
            that high and honest????

            When are you going to move to civilization??? Remember what you said about a
            year ago?
            Helga

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgrant@...]
            Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:09 PM
            To: czechlist@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Czechlist] Off-topic: Czech view of Bush


            Just curious--what's the general Czech perception of the Bush regime,
            excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an "Old Europe" or
            "New Europe" view? Or somewhere in between, or do they not really
            care?

            Michael
          • Michael Grant
            ... Well, I didn t really want to launch a debate about US politics on this list. In the unlikely event that anyone has paid any attention to my messages here
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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              On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:33:09 +0100, Helga Listen <listen@...> wrote:
              >
              > When looking at the statistics I still cannot believe that there are
              > actually two totally different societies in this countrie. It never was so
              > clear to me, that the bible belt was so powerful (and stupid). Has there no
              > one seen 9/11 in those states????? Do they really think Mr. Bushes moral is
              > that high and honest????

              Well, I didn't really want to launch a debate about US politics on
              this list. In the unlikely event that anyone has paid any attention to
              my messages here in the past, they'll probably know that I have some
              fairly strong opinions, but there's not much point in airing them here
              and now. I was just hoping to get an idea of the Czech perspective. I
              understand that many Poles actually have quite a positive view of Bush
              & co.

              >
              > When are you going to move to civilization??? Remember what you said about a
              > year ago?

              My wife and I are seriously discussing a return to Europe, possibly
              even Prague. (The political situation does have something to do with
              that but is not the only reason.) As for civilization, I think it's
              overrated. ;-)

              Michael

              --
              "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
              - Franz Kafka
            • James Kirchner
              ... I can t tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back an interesting memory. A friend of mine who graduated from the gymnazium around 1988
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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                On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 02:09 PM, Michael Grant wrote:

                > Just curious--what's the general Czech perception of the Bush regime,
                > excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an "Old Europe" or
                > "New Europe" view? Or somewhere in between, or do they not really
                > care?

                I can't tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back an
                interesting memory. A friend of mine who graduated from the gymnazium
                around 1988 told me a few years ago that a downward age gap of just
                three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties. Or as he put it,
                "All it takes is an age difference of three years, and the kids think
                like real idiots, just like in Germany."

                If you're interested, I can also tell you that my many Iraqi friends
                here -- who still have close family in Baghdad -- were rooting for Bush
                and called me to say how ecstatic they were when he won. In the
                Detroit area, with its famously huge Arab population, I have met many
                Syrians, Lebanese, Yemenis, etc., who are angry about the war and hate
                Bush, but virtually every Iraqi I've ever met claims to be grateful for
                the intervention and thinks that the bloodshed is a necessary tradeoff,
                even if their own family member gets killed. I even see pro-Bush,
                anti-Saddam bumper stickers on the cars of veiled Muslim women. (Make
                any conjecture you want.) The only thing they claim was done wrong was
                that the borders were not sealed after the takeover. (I personally
                believe that that was a deliberate strategy, but who knows.)

                And, if it comes back on, be sure to watch the History Channel
                documentary "Nazi Guerillas", about the Allied occupation from 1945 to
                1948. It's very pertinent to what's happening now.

                Jamie


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Kirchner
                ... Do you mean the terrorist attacks on 9/11 or the movie Fahrenheit 9/11 ? If you mean the latter, plenty of people here have seen it, but the Europeans
                Message 7 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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                  On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 03:33 PM, Helga Listen wrote:

                  > Has there no one seen 9/11 in those states????? 

                  Do you mean the terrorist attacks on 9/11 or the movie "Fahrenheit
                  9/11"? If you mean the latter, plenty of people here have seen it, but
                  the Europeans probably have not seen the video "Fahrenhype 9/11", in
                  which a former Clinton adviser and other commentators dissect the lies
                  and cinematic tricks Michael Moore used in that movie (which are
                  similar to the ones he used in other films). After the movie came out,
                  the film was deconstructed lie for lie and trick for trick on news
                  shows and in books that the Europeans either don't have access to or
                  (in many cases) can't understand. It's the usual problem I often
                  complain about, which is that masses of nutty media are translated and
                  circulated in Europe, whether the teachings of the Baghwan Sri
                  Razhneesh or the political comedies of Michael Moore, but the media
                  that refute them are never translated. Europeans therefore don't have
                  the ability to judge things that go on in the US based on balanced
                  input.

                  Example: Moore does an ambush interview with a member of Congress and
                  asks him if he would send his own child to fight in Iraq. The senator
                  thought for a little while and then gave a very thoughtful response
                  that mentioned that his own chlidren were now too old to be sent, but
                  that members of the next generation of his family were there fighting.
                  After answering the question, the legislator had to get into the
                  capital because there was some important vote going on, so he excused
                  himself and ran into the building. This is what was witnessed by
                  people who were there. Moore cut the scene up, so that he showed
                  himself asking the question, then the legislator thinking and running
                  into the capitol building. The viewer was obviously supposed to get
                  the phony impression that the man couldn't answer the question and just
                  ran away. Moore uses this type of deceptive editing frequently.

                  Moore does this in other films. In Bowling for Columbine, he gives the
                  world the impression that in the US you can go to a bank and get a free
                  shotgun just for opening an account. That scene is actually completely
                  fictional -- it was staged with "actors". It couldn't happen. Any
                  bank just handing over shotguns like that would be shut down very
                  quickly, because the legal acquisition of a gun here requires a
                  criminal background check and a 45-day waiting period before delivery.

                  > Do they really think Mr. Bushes moral is that high and honest????

                  Some people do, and some people don't. I saw this election this way:
                  It was mainly an ideological battle between people who were imprinted
                  in the '60s hippie era (which is where I think many Czechs' brains are
                  also stuck), and those who think the economic, social and moral beliefs
                  of that time have not worked (which they haven't). There was more to
                  it than just the war in Iraq. Kerry offered solutions to social issues
                  that were basically retreads of the failed ideas of the 1960s, and he
                  never enunciated workable plans for anything.

                  Example: The education system has completely degenerated in many parts
                  of the US. A European who came into my classrooms would be stunned at
                  the simple things that American 18-year-olds don't know. (I frequently
                  run into kids who don't know where Ontario is, even though it's only 20
                  minutes away from their house. And forget expecting them to recognize
                  what a noun is.) Bush has tried to work out a strategy to fix the
                  problem (Senator Ted Kennedy helped write the bill). It's very
                  imperfect, and it's not funded right, but even a lot of people who
                  complain about it claim it's at least a better alternative than the
                  Democrats' former strategy of just pumping more and more money into
                  corrupt schools without demanding any accountability. Kerry was pretty
                  much offering the old strategy.

                  Another thing that appealed to many Americans about Bush's plan was
                  that he wanted to reform the system that allows those crazy lawsuits
                  that Europeans think are so funny. They now take up 2.5% of GNP, and
                  are massively increasing the cost of healthcare and often of running a
                  business. In some states the problem is so bad that they have trouble
                  getting obstetricians and other specialists to practice there. Kerry
                  offered a government health plan without reform of this system of tort
                  lawsuits, and he even chose a tort lawyer as his running mate. This
                  promised that the problem was never going to change.

                  So, you see, it wasn't all the war or moral issues, but as the European
                  press would like people to think.

                  And I doubt it helped when Osama bin Laden popped up on TV to endorse
                  John Kerry and was basically saying all the same things that John Kerry
                  and Michael Moore had been saying for months.

                  You should also know that when Americans have a choice between a
                  president they're not crazy about but can predict, and a challenger
                  they're also not crazy about and can't predict, they'll take the
                  predictable guy.

                  > When are you going to move to civilization???

                  Civilization??? In the past 100 years, Europe has had several
                  genocidal dictators who, combined, massacred at least 30 million
                  people. Usually the "civilized" powers discuss with the despots and
                  act like gentlemen until it's too late, and then they ask the US to get
                  their guys killed to fix a problem Europe didn't do anything about.
                  Europe is not as civilized it would appear in the self-flattering minds
                  of many Europeans.

                  Jamie


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                • Petr Jarolím
                  Has any of you read Zeme pod sochou svobody (Dejiny USA, jak je nezname) by Joachim Fernau (for Helga: Halleluja, Die Geschichte der USA). Some opinions of
                  Message 8 of 24 , Nov 4, 2004
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                    Has any of you read Zeme pod sochou svobody (Dejiny USA, jak je nezname)
                    by Joachim Fernau (for Helga: Halleluja, Die Geschichte der USA).
                    Some opinions of that guy are a bit extremistic but give rather
                    interesting background information (the perception of the U.S. all over
                    the world, reasons for "americanism" and "anti-americanism"). It is
                    worth reading it!
                    best regards
                    Hana
                  • ing.Sarka Rubkova
                    Ahoj, Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do cestiny? Sarka
                    Message 9 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                      Ahoj,

                      Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do cestiny?

                      Sarka
                    • James Kirchner
                      ... It can help also to read a history of the US by someone who understands how most Americans really think. One I would suggest is A History of the American
                      Message 10 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                        On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 02:46 AM, Petr Jarolím wrote:

                        > Has any of you read Zeme pod sochou svobody (Dejiny USA, jak je
                        > nezname)
                        > by Joachim Fernau (for Helga: Halleluja, Die Geschichte der USA).
                        > Some opinions of that guy are a bit extremistic but give rather
                        > interesting background information (the perception of the U.S. all over
                        > the world, reasons for "americanism" and "anti-americanism"). It is
                        > worth reading it!

                        It can help also to read a history of the US by someone who understands
                        how most Americans really think. One I would suggest is "A History of
                        the American People" by Paul Johnson. He also wrote a very interesting
                        book called "Intellectuals", which does a fascinating job of
                        introducing intellectuals of the past few centuries who claimed to be
                        working for the benefit of all humanity but were extremely destructive
                        to the actual flesh-and-blood humans in their lives.

                        Jamie


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • James Kirchner
                        ... I think you translate it Lorem Ipsum. These are the first two words of the standard phony text used in sample layouts when the real text to be used is not
                        Message 11 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                          On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 07:42 AM, ing.Sarka Rubkova wrote:

                          > Ahoj,
                          >
                          > Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do
                          > cestiny?

                          I think you translate it Lorem Ipsum. These are the first two words of
                          the standard phony text used in sample layouts when the real text to be
                          used is not available yet. It can be called "placeholder text", and in
                          the ad agencies, if I remember correctly, we called it "Greek type",
                          leading to the verb "to greek in". If you "greek a column in", that
                          means to fill it with that placeholder text. This text is frequently
                          included in standard page layout programs now, but in the days of
                          cardboard and glue, you used to be able to buy sheets of it for dummy
                          layouts.

                          For more information, see this site: http://www.lipsum.com/

                          Jamie


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jaroslav Hejzlar
                          Tomu, o cem tady mluvi Jamie, se myslim rika slepy text . Jarda ... From: James Kirchner [mailto:jpklists@sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 1:57
                          Message 12 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                            Tomu, o cem tady mluvi Jamie, se myslim rika "slepy text".
                            Jarda

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: James Kirchner [mailto:jpklists@...]
                            Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 1:57 PM
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] RE: [Lorem ipsum



                            On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 07:42 AM, ing.Sarka Rubkova wrote:

                            > Ahoj,
                            >
                            > Titulek (bez kontextu) zni Lorem Ipsum. Da se to nejak prelozit do
                            > cestiny?

                            I think you translate it Lorem Ipsum. These are the first two words of
                            the standard phony text used in sample layouts when the real text to be
                            used is not available yet. It can be called "placeholder text", and in
                            the ad agencies, if I remember correctly, we called it "Greek type",
                            leading to the verb "to greek in". If you "greek a column in", that
                            means to fill it with that placeholder text. This text is frequently
                            included in standard page layout programs now, but in the days of
                            cardboard and glue, you used to be able to buy sheets of it for dummy
                            layouts.

                            For more information, see this site: http://www.lipsum.com/

                            Jamie


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            Czechlist resources:
                            http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                            Obcasnik:
                            http://zehrovak.bloguje.cz
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • janvanek
                            ... regime, ... Trying to keep as ontopic as possible (so I WON T post a great argument about a question discussed here before :-), I d put it Old Europe /
                            Message 13 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grant <mgrant@g...> wrote:

                              > Just curious--what's the general Czech perception of the Bush
                              regime,
                              > excuse me, administration? Do they take more of an "Old Europe" or
                              > "New Europe" view? Or somewhere in between, or do they not really
                              > care?

                              Trying to keep as ontopic as possible (so I WON'T post a great
                              argument about a question discussed here before :-), I'd put it Old
                              Europe / inbetween / do not care. In my limited experience, you will
                              of course find all types in online flamewars, but the pro-Bush part
                              seems smaller in absolute numbers and containing bigger proportion of
                              outright cranks.

                              There is an overview of various Czech polls I wasn't even aware of at
                              http://stealthisurl.blogspot.com/2004/11/of-course-hell-lose-
                              electoral-college.html

                              --
                              Jan Vanek jr.
                            • James Kirchner
                              People overseas who think that the north went for Kerry and that the south voted for Bush might find this map interesting. It gives a county-by-county
                              Message 14 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                People overseas who think that the north went for Kerry and that the
                                south voted for Bush might find this map interesting. It gives a
                                county-by-county breakdown of the election results. The map is
                                practically all red, indicating that, at least geographically, most
                                localities voted for Bush, while certain, mostly urban areas went for
                                Kerry. My own state is depicted on most maps as having "gone for
                                Kerry", but in fact only a tiny geographic portion of the state showed
                                a majority for him. You can click and compare the map to the 2000
                                results, which show a similar, but not as complete pattern.

                                http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

                                Jamie
                              • batoun@yahoo.com
                                Jamie That s one depressing picture! Petr ... http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm ... __________________________________ Do
                                Message 15 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                  Jamie

                                  That's one depressing picture!

                                  Petr

                                  --- James Kirchner <jpklists@...> wrote:

                                  > People overseas who think that the north went for
                                  > Kerry and that the
                                  > south voted for Bush might find this map
                                  > interesting. It gives a
                                  > county-by-county breakdown of the election results.
                                  > The map is
                                  > practically all red, indicating that, at least
                                  > geographically, most
                                  > localities voted for Bush, while certain, mostly
                                  > urban areas went for
                                  > Kerry. My own state is depicted on most maps as
                                  > having "gone for
                                  > Kerry", but in fact only a tiny geographic portion
                                  > of the state showed
                                  > a majority for him. You can click and compare the
                                  > map to the 2000
                                  > results, which show a similar, but not as complete
                                  > pattern.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm
                                  >
                                  > Jamie
                                  >
                                  >




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                                • Michael Grant
                                  On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:13 -0800 (PST), batoun@yahoo.com ... Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase red scare , doesn t it? The thing to remember is that,
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                    On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:13 -0800 (PST), batoun@...
                                    <batoun@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > That's one depressing picture!

                                    Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "red scare", doesn't it? The
                                    thing to remember is that, although the blue flecks (we're the one
                                    sitting there by itself in the middle of Texas) may make up only a
                                    small fraction of the land area, they do represent 48% of the voting
                                    population.

                                    Michael

                                    --
                                    "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                    - Franz Kafka
                                  • Radovan Pletka
                                    ... From: Helga Listen Subject: RE: Off-topic: Czech view of Bush Hallo Michael, Well, my view may not be entirely Czech, but I can
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                      >>>
                                      From: "Helga Listen" <listen@...>
                                      Subject: RE: Off-topic: Czech view of Bush

                                      Hallo Michael,
                                      Well, my view may not be entirely Czech, but I can tell you that I've been
                                      watching CNN until 2:30 in the morning, hoping and praying - with no
                                      success.<<<<


                                      ConvolutedNotrelevantNonsense - give me a break (-:
                                      This is the problem, you watch absolutely biased news, which are worse than communist propaganda was.
                                      With communists you knew you were fed shit, because it tasted like shit.
                                      With liberal media you are fed shit which makes you feel good, so you think its good, but it is still shit.
                                      I know what I am talking about - I have PhD in journalism from communist university.
                                      One of old professors told us once:
                                      Z hovna bic neupletes
                                      A kdyz upletes, tak nezapraskas
                                      A i kdybys zapraskal, tak te to posere.
                                      If you Czech is not good enough to get this, ask for translation - somebody here can do that well, I am sure.
                                      There is no unbiased news source about US in the whole Europe, unles you are able to listen to US talk radio.
                                      British BBC is as biased bunch of liberals as anybody else.
                                      So listen to both for some time, make an independent, unbiased opinion and than you will see that 51% of Americans may be like Busch - much smarter than everybody else and media think (-:
                                      Unles you like the taste of shit, which feels good, which seems to be European favored flavor of the month for many years now (-:
                                      In this case please delete this shit (-:
                                    • batoun@yahoo.com
                                      I haven t been this depressed since 9/11, and I didn t even vote (though in the US since 1986, I am still just Czech citizen). But people of this great place -
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Nov 5, 2004
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                                        I haven't been this depressed since 9/11, and I didn't
                                        even vote (though in the US since 1986, I am still
                                        just Czech citizen). But people of this great place -
                                        New York hadn't voted s. Bush back in anyway.


                                        --- Michael Grant <mgrant@...> wrote:

                                        > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:13 -0800 (PST),
                                        > batoun@...
                                        > <batoun@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > That's one depressing picture!
                                        >
                                        > Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "red scare",
                                        > doesn't it? The
                                        > thing to remember is that, although the blue flecks
                                        > (we're the one
                                        > sitting there by itself in the middle of Texas) may
                                        > make up only a
                                        > small fraction of the land area, they do represent
                                        > 48% of the voting
                                        > population.
                                        >
                                        > Michael
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht
                                        > f�r uns."
                                        > - Franz Kafka
                                        >




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                                      • Michael Grant
                                        On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:12:37 -0500, James Kirchner ... Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please. Michael -- Aber ja! Es gibt
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                          On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:12:37 -0500, James Kirchner
                                          <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I can't tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back an
                                          > interesting memory. A friend of mine who graduated from the gymnazium
                                          > around 1988 told me a few years ago that a downward age gap of just
                                          > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                          > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.

                                          Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please.

                                          Michael


                                          --
                                          "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                          - Franz Kafka
                                        • James Kirchner
                                          ... Of course I wasn t claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists. Please. Next you re going to accuse me of claiming Jacques Chirac is a Stalinist.
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                            On Saturday, November 6, 2004, at 03:04 PM, Michael Grant wrote:

                                            > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:12:37 -0500, James Kirchner
                                            > <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I can't tell you the answer to that, of course, but you brought back
                                            > an
                                            > > interesting memory.  A friend of mine who graduated from the
                                            > gymnazium
                                            > > around 1988 told me a few years ago that a downward age gap of just
                                            > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                            > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                            >
                                            > Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please.

                                            Of course I wasn't claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists.
                                            Please. Next you're going to accuse me of claiming Jacques Chirac is a
                                            Stalinist. (The educated Iraqis I know have many other adjectives for
                                            him, but Stalinist is not one of them.)

                                            MTV people have their own weird ideology and perception of the world
                                            that I don't feel like outlining on this list. I will say, though,
                                            that for many years it has bothered me that MTV tends to treat people
                                            of darker-skinned races more like mascots than like full human beings,
                                            provided they are not stars.

                                            Jamie


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Michael Grant
                                            On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:27:13 -0500, James Kirchner ... Your friend seems to have been--unless I m completely missing the point of that quote? Michael -- Aber
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                              On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:27:13 -0500, James Kirchner
                                              <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                              > > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                              > >
                                              > > Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are. Please.
                                              >
                                              > Of course I wasn't claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists.

                                              Your friend seems to have been--unless I'm completely missing the
                                              point of that quote?

                                              Michael

                                              --
                                              "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                              - Franz Kafka
                                            • James Kirchner
                                              ... How do you get directly from lefty all the way to Stalinist? It doesn t seem to me that saying someone is leftist is the same as saying they are a
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                                On Sunday, November 7, 2004, at 12:12 AM, Michael Grant wrote:

                                                > On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:27:13 -0500, James Kirchner
                                                > <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                                > > > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Sure, and everyone knows what Stalinists those MTV people are.
                                                > Please.
                                                > >
                                                > > Of course I wasn't claiming MTV people are anything like Stalinists.
                                                >
                                                > Your friend seems to have been--unless I'm completely missing the
                                                > point of that quote?

                                                How do you get directly from "lefty" all the way to Stalinist? It
                                                doesn't seem to me that saying someone is leftist is the same as saying
                                                they are a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

                                                Jamie

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Michael Grant
                                                On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:18:48 -0500, James Kirchner ... Communist tyranny --maybe I just mistook the point of the whole comment. Michael -- Aber ja! Es gibt
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                                  On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:18:48 -0500, James Kirchner
                                                  <jpklists@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > > > > three years or so was enough to wash away the memory of communist
                                                  > > > > > tyranny and turn kids into standard MTV Euro-lefties.
                                                  >
                                                  > How do you get directly from "lefty" all the way to Stalinist? It
                                                  > doesn't seem to me that saying someone is leftist is the same as saying
                                                  > they are a paranoid, genocidal maniac.

                                                  "Communist tyranny"--maybe I just mistook the point of the whole comment.

                                                  Michael

                                                  --
                                                  "Aber ja! Es gibt unendlich viel Hoffnung. Nur nicht für uns."
                                                  - Franz Kafka
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