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Untranslatability revisited yet again

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  • janvanek
    Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase that nmakes problems for me every time and managed to keep it in mind long enough, so I d better
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 17 5:41 AM
      Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase that
      nmakes problems for me every time and managed to keep it in mind long
      enough, so I'd better set it down before I forget it again:

      to draw blood.

      --
      Jan Vanek jr.
    • tomas_barendregt
      ... long ... Hello Jan, Could you give us some context in which this phrase gives you trouble? I do not suppose it is the medical context (odebrat krev). Is it
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 17 7:42 AM
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "janvanek" <jan.vanek.jr@s...>
        wrote:
        > Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase that
        > nmakes problems for me every time and managed to keep it in mind
        long
        > enough, so I'd better set it down before I forget it again:
        >
        > to draw blood.

        Hello Jan,

        Could you give us some context in which this phrase gives you
        trouble? I do not suppose it is the medical context (odebrat krev).
        Is it in phrases like "Japan drew the first blood in the 24th minute
        as Midfielder Takashi Fukunishi headed in a pass from teammate
        Takayuki Suzuki"? For those, I would suggest (zasadit prvni
        uder/ranu). Or something altogether different?

        Tom
      • jsyeaton
        Drawing blood can either be physical, as when a cat scratches hard enough to draw blood - i.e., breaks the skin, or emotional - in the meaning that feelings
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 17 8:08 AM
          Drawing blood can either be physical, as when a cat scratches hard
          enough to draw blood - i.e., breaks the skin, or emotional - in the
          meaning that feelings are hurt, rather badly. And probably
          intentionally. What insults are intended to do.

          Judy




          > > Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase
          that
          > > nmakes problems for me every time and managed to keep it in mind
          > long
          > > enough, so I'd better set it down before I forget it again:
          > >
          > > to draw blood.
          >
          > Hello Jan,
          >
          > Could you give us some context in which this phrase gives you
          > trouble? I do not suppose it is the medical context (odebrat krev).
          > Is it in phrases like "Japan drew the first blood in the 24th minute
          > as Midfielder Takashi Fukunishi headed in a pass from teammate
          > Takayuki Suzuki"? For those, I would suggest (zasadit prvni
          > uder/ranu). Or something altogether different?
          >
          > Tom
        • janvanek
          ... I mean the most literal meaning possible, to damage the integrity of skin enough that blood appears (though not so much as to call it bleeding) . I just
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 19 4:16 AM
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:

            > > > Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase
            > > > that makes problems for me every time and managed to keep it
            > > > in mind long enough, so I'd better set it down before I
            > > > forget it again:
            > > >
            > > > to draw blood.
            > >
            > > Could you give us some context in which this phrase gives you
            > > trouble? I do not suppose it is the medical context (odebrat
            > > krev). Is it in phrases like "Japan drew the first blood in
            > > the 24th minute as Midfielder Takashi Fukunishi headed in a pass
            > > from teammate Takayuki Suzuki"? For those, I would suggest
            > > (zasadit prvni uder/ranu). Or something altogether different?
            > >
            > > Tom
            >
            > Drawing blood can either be physical, as when a cat scratches hard
            > enough to draw blood - i.e., breaks the skin, or emotional - in the
            > meaning that feelings are hurt, rather badly. And probably
            > intentionally. What insults are intended to do.
            >
            > Judy

            I mean the most literal meaning possible, "to damage the integrity of
            skin enough that blood appears (though not so much as to call it
            bleeding)". I just think that Czech has no similar simple SVO
            structure and has to circumvent it unwieldily.

            Of course I forgot to write down the exact phrase and it seems not to
            be quoted online but this is comparatively similar:

            Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom, had a companion Owl on her
            shoulder which revealed unseen truths to her. Her owl had the ability
            to light up Athena' blind side, enabling her to speak the whole
            truth. The Little Owl's claws point in an inward direction, therefore
            to rest upon Athena's shoulder, the Little Owl must have drawn blood.

            Now that I think of it, I suppose that in this case you probably
            could do something with "do krve" preceded by a suitable verb -
            "zaryvala se paraty az do krve" or something such. Yet another
            example of Czech's _slovesna povaha_ (in fact that's the whole poit
            that the English phrase user rather vague, generic, almost auxiliary
            verb). But I'm sure there were cases which were even worse in this
            respect.

            --
            Jan Vanek jr.

            P.S. Oh, I found the original quote at last: "Perhaps when
            considering the manner in which [an owl] grips its branch, with two
            toes in front and the reversible outer toe clutching from behind, we
            should allow oursleves to pause for a moment and acknowledge that
            these same claws must once have drawn blood from the shoulder of
            Pallas."
          • jsyeaton
            To draw blood is usually used metaphorically; the most common physical meaning of the term is to take a blood sample. Usually you d simply say break the
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 19 4:53 AM
              "To draw blood" is usually used metaphorically; the most common
              physical meaning of the term is "to take a blood sample." Usually
              you'd simply say "break the surface" in referring to a slight injury.
              "Draw" is a fairly strong verb, the reason it can be used
              metaphorically, I suppose. There may be more of a sense of
              intentionality with "drawing blood" than with "breaking the surface."

              The writer of the sentence about Athena and her owl probably just felt
              that "breaking the surface" was simply too boring and went for the
              more colorful expression, although seeing and speaking the truth can
              be a dangerous act.

              Jamie? What do you think?

              Judy



              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "janvanek" <jan.vanek.jr@s...> wrote:
              > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > > > Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase
              > > > > that makes problems for me every time and managed to keep it
              > > > > in mind long enough, so I'd better set it down before I
              > > > > forget it again:
              > > > >
              > > > > to draw blood.
              > > >
              > > > Could you give us some context in which this phrase gives you
              > > > trouble? I do not suppose it is the medical context (odebrat
              > > > krev). Is it in phrases like "Japan drew the first blood in
              > > > the 24th minute as Midfielder Takashi Fukunishi headed in a pass
              > > > from teammate Takayuki Suzuki"? For those, I would suggest
              > > > (zasadit prvni uder/ranu). Or something altogether different?
              > > >
              > > > Tom
              > >
              > > Drawing blood can either be physical, as when a cat scratches hard
              > > enough to draw blood - i.e., breaks the skin, or emotional - in the
              > > meaning that feelings are hurt, rather badly. And probably
              > > intentionally. What insults are intended to do.
              > >
              > > Judy
              >
              > I mean the most literal meaning possible, "to damage the integrity of
              > skin enough that blood appears (though not so much as to call it
              > bleeding)". I just think that Czech has no similar simple SVO
              > structure and has to circumvent it unwieldily.
              >
              > Of course I forgot to write down the exact phrase and it seems not to
              > be quoted online but this is comparatively similar:
              >
              > Athena, the Greek goddess of wisdom, had a companion Owl on her
              > shoulder which revealed unseen truths to her. Her owl had the ability
              > to light up Athena' blind side, enabling her to speak the whole
              > truth. The Little Owl's claws point in an inward direction, therefore
              > to rest upon Athena's shoulder, the Little Owl must have drawn blood.
              >
              > Now that I think of it, I suppose that in this case you probably
              > could do something with "do krve" preceded by a suitable verb -
              > "zaryvala se paraty az do krve" or something such. Yet another
              > example of Czech's _slovesna povaha_ (in fact that's the whole poit
              > that the English phrase user rather vague, generic, almost auxiliary
              > verb). But I'm sure there were cases which were even worse in this
              > respect.
              >
              > --
              > Jan Vanek jr.
              >
              > P.S. Oh, I found the original quote at last: "Perhaps when
              > considering the manner in which [an owl] grips its branch, with two
              > toes in front and the reversible outer toe clutching from behind, we
              > should allow oursleves to pause for a moment and acknowledge that
              > these same claws must once have drawn blood from the shoulder of
              > Pallas."
            • jsyeaton
              There was another term you had a few weeks ago - some item under a belljar - that turned out to have an interesting meaning, that I posted, but don t think you
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 19 5:09 AM
                There was another term you had a few weeks ago - some item under a
                belljar - that turned out to have an interesting meaning, that I
                posted, but don't think you saw. And now I can't remember the term -
                it should be listed in the message archive with the subject = to the
                word, if you still remember it, and are still interested.

                Judy




                > > > > Nothing big today, but I finally for once came across a phrase
                > > > > that makes problems for me every time and managed to keep it
                > > > > in mind long enough, so I'd better set it down before I
                > > > > forget it again:
                > > > >
                > > > > to draw blood.
                ..................
                > --
                > Jan Vanek jr.
                >
                > P.S. Oh, I found the original quote at last: "Perhaps when
                > considering the manner in which [an owl] grips its branch, with two
                > toes in front and the reversible outer toe clutching from behind, we
                > should allow oursleves to pause for a moment and acknowledge that
                > these same claws must once have drawn blood from the shoulder of
                > Pallas."
              • James Kirchner
                ... I don t think drawing blood and breaking the surface are equivalent. Outside of a medical context, blood is drawn through an intentional injury. She bit
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 19 6:50 PM
                  On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 07:53 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                  > "To draw blood" is usually used metaphorically; the most common
                  > physical meaning of the term is "to take a blood sample."  Usually
                  > you'd simply say "break the surface" in referring to a slight injury.
                  > "Draw" is a fairly strong verb, the reason it can be used
                  > metaphorically, I suppose.  There may be more of a sense of
                  > intentionality with "drawing blood" than with "breaking the surface."

                  I don't think drawing blood and breaking the surface are equivalent.

                  Outside of a medical context, blood is drawn through an intentional
                  injury. "She bit him and actually drew blood." With an animal, the
                  injury doesn't have to be inflicted intentionally, but it has to result
                  from some action of the animal. A puppy can draw blood just through
                  his enthusiasm for affectionate chewing.

                  Breaking the surface usually happens due to an injury caused by an
                  inanimate object.

                  And, don't forget that an injury can break the surface without drawing
                  blood.

                  Jamie




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jsyeaton
                  ... Maybe the intentionality - or seriousness - is attributed by the user? When my dog goes after someone, I ll be sure to point out that his teeth didn t even
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 20 2:09 AM
                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Thursday, August 19, 2004, at 07:53 AM, jsyeaton wrote:
                    >
                    > > "To draw blood" is usually used metaphorically; the most common
                    > > physical meaning of the term is "to take a blood sample." Usually
                    > > you'd simply say "break the surface" in referring to a slight injury.
                    > > "Draw" is a fairly strong verb, the reason it can be used
                    > > metaphorically, I suppose. There may be more of a sense of
                    > > intentionality with "drawing blood" than with "breaking the surface."
                    >
                    > I don't think drawing blood and breaking the surface are equivalent.
                    >
                    > Outside of a medical context, blood is drawn through an intentional
                    > injury. "She bit him and actually drew blood." With an animal, the
                    > injury doesn't have to be inflicted intentionally, but it has to result
                    > from some action of the animal. A puppy can draw blood just through
                    > his enthusiasm for affectionate chewing.
                    >
                    > Breaking the surface usually happens due to an injury caused by an
                    > inanimate object.
                    >
                    > And, don't forget that an injury can break the surface without drawing
                    > blood.
                    >
                    > Jamie

                    Maybe the intentionality - or seriousness - is attributed by the user?
                    When my dog goes after someone, I'll be sure to point out that his
                    teeth didn't even break the surface (even better: the surface was not
                    broken). When somebody else's dog comes after me, I'll be sure to
                    mention that he drew blood. If I don't like the person very much. If
                    I do, back to the first variant. (As for the dogs themselves, if it's
                    officially play, they can inflict a fairly severe puncture wound with
                    no real complaint from the other.)

                    Talking about a puppy "drawing blood" sounds like humorous
                    exaggeration, I think.

                    Judy
                  • James Kirchner
                    Whether there is intention or not, draw blood and break the surface are NOT equivalent! Break the surface means to break the skin, whether there s
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 20 3:33 AM
                      Whether there is intention or not, "draw blood" and "break the surface"
                      are NOT equivalent!

                      "Break the surface" means to break the skin, whether there's bleeding
                      or not.

                      "Draw blood" means to cause bleeding.

                      The fact that the two might be used in the same situations doesn't mean
                      that they are synonymous.

                      Jamie

                      On Friday, August 20, 2004, at 05:09 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                      > Maybe the intentionality - or seriousness - is attributed by the user?
                      > When my dog goes after someone, I'll be sure to point out that his
                      > teeth didn't even break the surface (even better: the surface was not
                      > broken).  When somebody else's dog comes after me, I'll be sure to
                      > mention that he drew blood.  If I don't like the person very much.  If
                      > I do, back to the first variant.  (As for the dogs themselves, if it's
                      > officially play, they can inflict a fairly severe puncture wound with
                      > no real complaint from the other.)
                      >
                      > Talking about a puppy "drawing blood" sounds like humorous
                      > exaggeration, I think.
                      >
                      > Judy

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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