Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Czechlist] Re: REALIA: Anglická vlajka

Expand Messages
  • Terminus Technicus
    ... Can t we? M
    Message 1 of 19 , May 31, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      > Anyway, since most Czechs can't properly distinguish between the
      > vowels in 'bean' and 'bin',

      Can't we?

      M
    • raesim
      ... Most Czechs make the quantitative distinction (i.e. they say the vowel in bin a little shorter than that in bean ), but not the qualitative one (i.e.
      Message 2 of 19 , May 31, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
        <czechlist@t...> wrote:
        >
        > > Anyway, since most Czechs can't properly distinguish between the
        > > vowels in 'bean' and 'bin',
        >
        > Can't we?

        Most Czechs make the quantitative distinction (i.e. they say the
        vowel in 'bin' a little shorter than that in 'bean'), but not the
        qualitative one (i.e. they keep their mouth in the same position for
        both sounds).

        But don't worry: I'm sure you're not most Czechs.

        Simon
      • Terminus Technicus
        Most Czechs make the quantitative distinction (i.e. they say the ... OK, I see, I wasn t thinking about that one... I m sure I ll make that mistake too when
        Message 3 of 19 , May 31, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Most Czechs make the quantitative distinction (i.e. they say the
          > vowel in 'bin' a little shorter than that in 'bean'), but not the
          > qualitative one (i.e. they keep their mouth in the same position for
          > both sounds).


          OK, I see, I wasn't thinking about that one... I'm sure I'll make that
          mistake too when sufficiently tired, lazy, or tipsy.... I usually only
          pronounciate well when I'm speaking to someone who does, when I speak to a
          foreigner whose pronunciation is lazy or just different from what it should
          be, I don't get the same motivation... :) Plus I sometimes think (a bit
          patronizingly, I admit) about how to simplify what I'm saying (eventhough
          that person's English may not require it, just because they don't sound like
          a NS), so I end up sounding like a monkey myself...

          It's amazing how frequent exposure to good accents and speakers improves
          one's English... and then it fades away again...

          M



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "raesim" <rachelandsimon@...>
          To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 3:41 PM
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: REALIA: Anglická vlajka


          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
          > <czechlist@t...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Anyway, since most Czechs can't properly distinguish between the
          > > > vowels in 'bean' and 'bin',
          > >
          > > Can't we?
          >
          > Most Czechs make the quantitative distinction (i.e. they say the
          > vowel in 'bin' a little shorter than that in 'bean'), but not the
          > qualitative one (i.e. they keep their mouth in the same position for
          > both sounds).
          >
          > But don't worry: I'm sure you're not most Czechs.
          >
          > Simon
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Worth checking out:
          > http://translationexchange.blogspot.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • jsyeaton
          ... Yes - but the short i gets cut off before it reaches full stretch. J ... The difference in quantity was enough to confuse me at first: my textbook and
          Message 4 of 19 , May 31, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
            wrote:
            > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus"
            > <czechlist@t...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > Anyway, since most Czechs can't properly distinguish between the
            > > > vowels in 'bean' and 'bin',
            > >
            > > Can't we?
            >
            > Most Czechs make the quantitative distinction (i.e. they say the
            > vowel in 'bin' a little shorter than that in 'bean'), but not the
            > qualitative one (i.e. they keep their mouth in the same position for
            > both sounds).

            Yes - but the short i gets cut off before it reaches full stretch. J
            >
            > But don't worry: I'm sure you're not most Czechs.
            >
            > Simon

            The difference in quantity was enough to confuse me at first: my
            textbook and teacher said that the only difference in i /i' was
            length, not quantity, and I kept asking were Zlici'n - for example was
            (after I'd been going there three times a week for a month). And
            nobody could understand me when I pronounced short i like ee - but
            very briefly (and softened everything in front of e and so on and so
            forth). Then I discovered the quantity difference in long and short
            i's, and started pointing it out to Czechs, and they would listen to
            me politely and say, no there's no difference, one is just longer than
            the other. Which goes to show you what a having phonemic difference
            in one language can do to one's interpretation of sounds in another.
            I finally started pronouncing pivo correctly when I started thinking
            of it as "pivvo" - a - u etc.

            On the other hand, I was completely deaf to the length distinction
            used to signal voiced vs voiceless final consonants in English - set
            (short e) vs said (longer e), stayed (long) vs state (shorter).
            English has three lengths, but doesn't brag about it. In fact, I had
            to learn about it from a Czech book on English pronunciation.

            Judy
          • James Kirchner
            ... Many can t. I ve had to coach them in the distinction, and a lot of Czechs just can t get it. Many distinguish only between [i] and b| . Jamie [Non-text
            Message 5 of 19 , May 31, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              On Monday, May 31, 2004, at 09:20 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

              >
              > > Anyway, since most Czechs can't properly distinguish between the
              > > vowels in 'bean' and 'bin',
              >
              > Can't we?

              Many can't. I've had to coach them in the distinction, and a lot of
              Czechs just can't get it. Many distinguish only between [i] and "b|".

              Jamie

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • James Kirchner
              ... For three years, in a small town where hardly anyone spoke good English, I had to simplify almost everything I said in my own language, and pronounce with
              Message 6 of 19 , May 31, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                On Monday, May 31, 2004, at 09:52 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

                > Plus I sometimes think (a bit
                > patronizingly, I admit) about how to simplify what I'm saying
                > (eventhough
                > that person's English may not require it, just because they don't
                > sound like
                > a NS), so I end up sounding like a monkey myself...

                For three years, in a small town where hardly anyone spoke good
                English, I had to simplify almost everything I said in my own language,
                and pronounce with extreme clarity. It took me weeks to begin speaking
                English normally again when I got home (and months after that, I'd
                still have to stop while I groped for an English word). However, this
                super-clear, simple English became one of my standard modes of speech,
                and foreigners often tell me either, "You're the only American I
                understand!" or else they insist I'm not American.

                Jamie


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • James Kirchner
                ... In a large part of the US, some vowel length differences can also come with vowel quality differences. In most of the north central part of the country,
                Message 7 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  On Monday, May 31, 2004, at 10:40 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                  > On the other hand, I was completely deaf to the length distinction
                  > used to signal voiced vs voiceless final consonants in English - set
                  > (short e) vs said (longer e), stayed (long) vs state (shorter). 
                  > English has three lengths, but doesn't brag about it.  In fact, I had
                  > to learn about it from a Czech book on English pronunciation.

                  In a large part of the US, some vowel length differences can also come
                  with vowel quality differences. In most of the north central part of
                  the country, the /a/ in "ride" is longer than the one in "right", but
                  it also changes from [a] to [^], so "right" is pronounced [r^jt], not
                  [rajt]. When I give data on this difference to linguistics students in
                  Michigan, and then ask them where "this dialect" is spoken, they
                  usually guess every imaginable part of the country, and don't realize
                  it's in their own speech.

                  Jamie


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Terminus Technicus
                  However, this ... Ha! We finally know why all those soudruzky ucitelky had problems with your English :) and why it annoys you so much when someone says it s
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    However, this
                    > super-clear, simple English became one of my standard modes of speech


                    Ha! We finally know why all those soudruzky ucitelky had problems with your
                    English :) and why it annoys you so much when someone says it's not
                    Breetish!!!

                    Just to make sure, this IS a joke, but it may have something to do with why
                    you get told off so often in this way (noone else seems to) and why you hate
                    it as much as to make it an universal attitude of all non-NS speakers of
                    English and an excuse to go off on a little personal crusade every time we
                    get within a mile of this "problem" (or, as a matter of fact, when we
                    don't) - I heard a fitting description of someone who ends every other reply
                    to ANY question talking about a specific subject that has NOTHING to do with
                    the question recentrly - what was the name of the Roman emperor who'd say
                    "and anyway I think that Carthago should be destroyed" after any sentence he
                    uttered???

                    :)

                    Matej
                  • James Kirchner
                    ... Actually, that criticism never came as a result of my speech, but every time I found a grammar or vocabulary mistake in Anglictina pro stredni skoly, apod.
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Monday, May 31, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Terminus Technicus wrote:

                      >
                      > However, this
                      > > super-clear, simple English became one of my standard modes of speech
                      >
                      > Ha! We finally know why all those soudruzky ucitelky had problems with
                      > your
                      > English :) and why it annoys you so much when someone says it's not
                      > Breetish!!!

                      Actually, that criticism never came as a result of my speech, but every
                      time I found a grammar or vocabulary mistake in Anglictina pro stredni
                      skoly, apod. It would also come when I told Czechs that no one says
                      "usedn't to", not to call people of African origin "Negroes", not to
                      call the skolnik a "school servant", and that the words "stranger" and
                      "foreigner" do not mean the same thing. It was in cases like this when
                      I was told I was wrong, and that all of these usages were da Breetish
                      Inklish. Of course, the British agreed with me.

                      > Just to make sure, this IS a joke, but it may have something to do
                      > with why you get told off so often in this way (noone else seems to)
                      > and why you hate it as much as to make it an universal attitude of all
                      > non-NS speakers of English and an excuse to go off on a little
                      > personal crusade every time we get within a mile of this "problem"
                      > (or, as a matter of fact, when we don't) - I heard a fitting
                      > description of someone who ends every other reply to ANY question
                      > talking about a specific subject that has NOTHING to do with the
                      > question recentrly - what was the name of the Roman emperor who'd say
                      > "and anyway I think that Carthago should be destroyed" after any
                      > sentence he uttered???
                      >
                      > :)

                      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Matej, there is one experience you, as a Czech, will
                      never have, and that is to work with foreigners who have an imperfect
                      command of Czech and who regularly tell you you don't know what you're
                      talking about when it comes to the vocabulary and structure of your own
                      language. The closest you'll ever come -- and you probably won't come
                      this close -- is to have a discussion with a certain Slavic languages
                      professor in a state south of me who, despite speaking terrible Czech,
                      insists that the [r] in "rty" and the [l] in "lpí" are syllabic,
                      regardless of the fact that no Czech thinks they form syllables. But
                      you won't get this kind of foolish criticism day in and day out, and
                      especially not in cases where you are documentably right, like I did
                      about English in the CR.

                      However, if you were a non-British speaker of English in the CR when I
                      was, you very frequently took this pounding from Czechs who could not
                      speak your language well but who insisted on the veracity of everything
                      SPN printed about English and on the correctness of everything any pani
                      profesorka taught them, even if she had almost never been out of the
                      CSSR. The British never did this. With them, a "difference" would be
                      noticed, and we'd sort out what it was in each variety. But the
                      British, unlike the Czechs, did not simply tell Americans they didn't
                      know what they were talking about, at least not in my experience.
                      (Well, there was one guy, but he was a bricklayer or something, and had
                      no linguistics training.)

                      And woe be to any Russian who is far better trained in English than the
                      Czech teachers are, because EVERYTHING she says will be dismissed out
                      of hand, no matter what her qualifications.

                      Actually, you haven't actually noticed what it is that sets me off on
                      these tirades (other than your jokes :-). They're usually ignited when
                      someone on the list (almost always a Czech) asserts that some localism
                      that is understood only in the UK can be used as international English.

                      Over the three years I was there, besides all the good things I
                      learned, the Czechs instilled me with two major eccentricities that I
                      haven't shaken since I've been home:

                      1. They taught me to be paranoid about British vs. American English
                      distinctions in a way I never had to when I only had to worry about the
                      British. (In fact, in England I am not made to feel self-conscious
                      about my English, even though it's obvious to everyone where I'm from.)

                      2. The middle-aged Czechs drove me so mad with their overblown
                      reverence for the Beatles, and especially John Lennon, that I cannot
                      enjoy their music anymore. I mean, they were big, but they weren't
                      gods, and there was plenty of rock 'n roll before them. (The men of
                      that generation amused me, however, with their reaction to the fact
                      that I grew up down the street from Suzi Quattro and knew her brother.
                      Such fuss over some dopey girl from a local family who I didn't even
                      know was famous.)

                      (Just to show you how much time has passed, my e-mail program has just
                      marked "Beatles" as a typo.)

                      Jamie

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jsyeaton
                      Cartago delenda est! Cato the Elder - ale abysme byly fajr, it was only at the end of every speech, not every sentence. And he was probably right. Judy ...
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Cartago delenda est! Cato the Elder - ale abysme byly fajr, it was
                        only at the end of every speech, not every sentence. And he was
                        probably right.

                        Judy



                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Terminus Technicus" <czechlist@t...
                        > wrote:
                        >
                        > However, this
                        > > super-clear, simple English became one of my standard modes of
                        speech
                        >
                        >
                        > Ha! We finally know why all those soudruzky ucitelky had problems
                        with your
                        > English :) and why it annoys you so much when someone says it's not
                        > Breetish!!!
                        >
                        > Just to make sure, this IS a joke, but it may have something to do
                        with why
                        > you get told off so often in this way (noone else seems to) and why
                        you hate
                        > it as much as to make it an universal attitude of all non-NS
                        speakers of
                        > English and an excuse to go off on a little personal crusade every
                        time we
                        > get within a mile of this "problem" (or, as a matter of fact, when
                        we
                        > don't) - I heard a fitting description of someone who ends every
                        other reply
                        > to ANY question talking about a specific subject that has NOTHING to
                        do with
                        > the question recentrly - what was the name of the Roman emperor
                        who'd say
                        > "and anyway I think that Carthago should be destroyed" after any
                        sentence he
                        > uttered???
                        >
                        > :)
                        >
                        > Matej
                      • Michael Grant
                        ... That s not very fair to the Carthaginians! Michael -- The Prophet said that women totally dominate men of intellect and Possessors of Hearts, But ignorant
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          On May 31, 2004, at 11:36 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                          > Cartago delenda est! Cato the Elder - ale abysme byly fajr, it was
                          > only at the end of every speech, not every sentence. And he was
                          > probably right.

                          That's not very fair to the Carthaginians!
                          Michael

                          --
                          The Prophet said that women totally dominate men of intellect and
                          Possessors of Hearts,
                          But ignorant men dominate women, for they are shackled by the ferocity
                          of animals.

                          - Jalal al-Din Rumi, Masnavi I:2434-2435 (translation by Yahyá M)
                        • ing.Sárka Rubková
                          Nebyl to cisar, ale senator. Jmenoval se Kato a koncil sve projevy, at uz se projednavalo cokoli, vetou: ...a take mám za to, že Kartago musí být
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Nebyl to cisar, ale senator. Jmenoval se Kato a koncil sve projevy, at uz se
                            projednavalo cokoli, vetou: "...a take mám za to, že Kartago musí být
                            zniceno".

                            Sarka
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Terminus Technicus [mailto:czechlist@...]
                            Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 5:15 PM
                            To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: REALIA: Anglická vlajka


                            However, this
                            > super-clear, simple English became one of my standard modes of speech


                            Ha! We finally know why all those soudruzky ucitelky had problems with your
                            English :) and why it annoys you so much when someone says it's not
                            Breetish!!!

                            Just to make sure, this IS a joke, but it may have something to do with why
                            you get told off so often in this way (noone else seems to) and why you hate
                            it as much as to make it an universal attitude of all non-NS speakers of
                            English and an excuse to go off on a little personal crusade every time we
                            get within a mile of this "problem" (or, as a matter of fact, when we
                            don't) - I heard a fitting description of someone who ends every other reply
                            to ANY question talking about a specific subject that has NOTHING to do with
                            the question recentrly - what was the name of the Roman emperor who'd say
                            "and anyway I think that Carthago should be destroyed" after any sentence he
                            uttered???

                            :)

                            Matej








                            Worth checking out:
                            http://translationexchange.blogspot.com
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • raesim
                            ... Lennon was a bona fide genius as well as a seminal cultural figure. ... Even in a decade as rich in popular music as the 60s, the Beatles stood head and
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > The middle-aged Czechs drove me so mad with their overblown
                              > reverence for the Beatles, and especially John Lennon, that I
                              > cannot enjoy their music anymore.

                              Lennon was a bona fide genius as well as a seminal cultural figure.

                              > I mean, they were big, but they weren't gods, and there was plenty
                              > of rock 'n roll before them.

                              Even in a decade as rich in popular music as the '60s, the Beatles
                              stood head and shoulders above everyone else -- apart from Bob Dylan.

                              Simon
                            • James Kirchner
                              ... He himself apparently didn t agree with that assessment. I can remember one interview with him where he expressed the belief that people had been
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Monday, May 31, 2004, at 07:10 PM, raesim wrote:

                                > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > The middle-aged Czechs drove me so mad with their overblown
                                > > reverence for the Beatles, and especially John Lennon, that I
                                > > cannot enjoy their music anymore. 
                                >
                                > Lennon was a bona fide genius as well as a seminal cultural figure.

                                He himself apparently didn't agree with that assessment. I can
                                remember one interview with him where he expressed the belief that
                                people had been hoodwinked. He directed the journalist's attention to
                                a circus poster that contained nearly everything he'd put into one song
                                on Sgt. Pepper, and pointed out that he'd plagiarized practically all
                                of it. The whole Magical Mystery Tour movie was basically plagiarized
                                from the life of Ken Kesey (if I have the right person), as is amply
                                documented in one of Tom Wolfe's books.

                                Maybe it seemed like that in Europe, but despite their popularity, the
                                Beatles were basically derivative in their early years, and by the time
                                they started getting "heavy", they were just one of many, not more
                                creative than dozens of others. I think their lowest point was their
                                bad renditions of Motown songs, in some of which they didn't even
                                bother to find out they'd misunderstood the words.

                                > > I mean, they were big, but they weren't gods, and there was plenty
                                > > of rock 'n roll before them. 
                                >
                                > Even in a decade as rich in popular music as the '60s, the Beatles
                                > stood head and shoulders above everyone else -- apart from Bob Dylan.

                                Uh-uh. A quarter talent and three quarters hype.

                                Jamie


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • coilinoc
                                ... Beatles ... Dylan. ... I m sorry Jamie. This time you have gone TOO far :-) I was born years after The Beatles split up, but I would still consider them
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > >
                                  > > Even in a decade as rich in popular music as the '60s, the
                                  Beatles
                                  > > stood head and shoulders above everyone else -- apart from Bob
                                  Dylan.
                                  >
                                  > Uh-uh. A quarter talent and three quarters hype.
                                  >
                                  > Jamie

                                  I'm sorry Jamie. This time you have gone TOO far :-)

                                  I was born years after The Beatles split up, but I would still
                                  consider them one of the few things in this world to be above and
                                  beyond any sort of hype. Their "minor" songwriter George Harrison
                                  alone could have released a solo album that would have put most
                                  other "artists" from the 60s to shame. And look at their musical
                                  development from Love Me Do to A Day in the Life, which took less
                                  than four years. Pure genius (if you can apply such terms to
                                  popular music)
                                • James Kirchner
                                  ... Then you re about the age of the Americans who asked my brother, Was Paul McCartney really in a band before Wings? No clue. ... He did, and he got sued
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 31, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Monday, May 31, 2004, at 09:39 PM, coilinoc wrote:

                                    > I'm sorry Jamie.  This time you have gone TOO far :-)
                                    >
                                    > I was born years after The Beatles split up, but I would still
                                    > consider them one of the few things in this world to be above and
                                    > beyond any sort of hype. 

                                    Then you're about the age of the Americans who asked my brother, "Was
                                    Paul McCartney really in a band before Wings?" No clue.

                                    > Their "minor" songwriter George Harrison
                                    > alone could have released a solo album that would have put most
                                    > other "artists" from the 60s to shame. 

                                    He did, and he got sued for plagiarism and lost. And it was a stupid
                                    hairspray rock song from the '60s that he plagiarized.

                                    > And look at their musical
                                    > development from Love Me Do to A Day in the Life, which took less
                                    > than four years.  Pure genius (if you can apply such terms to
                                    > popular music)

                                    And a lot of LSD.

                                    There were others writing things just as good at the time. The Beatles
                                    were influenced by other musicians, poets and hippies. The stuff was
                                    in the air. They were just so immensely popular at the time that a
                                    record company was willing to record and release the stuff if it came
                                    from them. If any of the hippie bands who influenced them had tried to
                                    get the same music released, they'd have been told to go to hell. It
                                    was the hype left over from their days recording their own good songs
                                    and their bad renditions of Motown and Chuck Berry songs that allowed
                                    them to get away with it. When I hear the Sgt. Pepper album now, as a
                                    middle-aged man who generally does not let nostalgia fool him, I find
                                    the music, and especially the lyrics, embarrassingly kitsch. Other
                                    people's music from the time has not faded that way for me.

                                    I guess the scene looks a lot different from Europe. A Czech woman who
                                    came to visit me a few years ago complained in disbelief that they
                                    didn't play any Swedish groups on the radio here. After Roxette got
                                    famous for about 10 minutes, nobody paid attention to those groups. On
                                    the other hand (and I assume things have changed, but they may not
                                    have), I have heard virtually no Mexican, Cuban or Colombian artists on
                                    Czech radio, I suppose because in those days Latin singers had not yet
                                    started releasing dance tunes that had one easy-to-understand English
                                    tagline that any European can remember. (They have begun doing it now,
                                    though.)

                                    Jamie

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • raesim
                                    ... You re referring to For the Benefit of Mr Kite. I don t think anyone ever made any secret of the fact that the phrases used in the song were taken from an
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <jpklists@s...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I can remember one interview with him where he expressed the
                                      > belief that people had been hoodwinked. He directed the
                                      > journalist's attention to a circus poster that contained nearly
                                      > everything he'd put into one song on Sgt. Pepper, and pointed out
                                      > that he'd plagiarized practically all of it.

                                      You're referring to For the Benefit of Mr Kite. I don't think
                                      anyone ever made any secret of the fact that the phrases used in the
                                      song were taken from an old fairground poster (and anyway, as Ian
                                      MacDonald points out in his book Revolution in the Head, the song's
                                      lyrics aren't a simple recital of these phrases, but a witty
                                      elaboration of them). The music, which Lennon certainly can't be
                                      accused of not writing, is an evocation of the bygone era of
                                      circuses and carnivals that the poster gives glimpses of. Lennon
                                      repudiated the song, but that doesn't mean we have to.

                                      Simon

                                      PS If we're very lucky, Pablo "Franki" Fanque might join us in
                                      this discussion...
                                    • James Kirchner
                                      ... Now you sound like the lit professors some of my students complain about. The prof will give them an exam that contains a famous poem. He ll ask them what
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Tuesday, June 1, 2004, at 02:22 PM, raesim wrote:

                                        > Lennon repudiated the song, but that doesn't mean we have to.

                                        Now you sound like the lit professors some of my students complain
                                        about. The prof will give them an exam that contains a famous poem.
                                        He'll ask them what the poet was trying to say, the students summarize
                                        the poet's own explanation of his meaning, and they fail that part of
                                        the test. So, they show the prof the poet's OWN explanation of what he
                                        meant, and the prof says, "Oh, yeah, but he was wrong about that..."

                                        Jamie


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • raesim
                                        ... This is an UTTERLY false comparison. Simon
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 2, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > > Lennon repudiated the song, but that doesn't mean we have to.
                                          >
                                          > Now you sound like the lit professors some of my students complain
                                          > about. The prof will give them an exam that contains a famous
                                          > poem. He'll ask them what the poet was trying to say, the
                                          > students summarize the poet's own explanation of his meaning, and
                                          > they fail that part of the test. So, they show the prof the
                                          > poet's OWN explanation of what he meant, and the prof says, "Oh,
                                          > yeah, but he was wrong about that..."

                                          This is an UTTERLY false comparison.

                                          Simon
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.