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Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)

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  • jsyeaton
    ... wrote: I don t think it s as much laxness as lack of experience. After all, for 40 years translators were taught - out of necessity - that it was possible
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1 6:44 AM
      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
      wrote:
      I don't think it's as much laxness as lack of experience. After
      all, for 40 years translators were taught - out of necessity - that
      it was possible to "go into foreign," and there was certainly no one
      around to challenge their work.

      Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
      translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-certified
      (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on by a native
      speaker, and assume all is well.

      In Britain, with its colonial past, and the US, home of immigrants,
      we've always had enough native speakers from everywhere so that it
      has been possible to insist that translators work only into their
      native language. Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
      missuse of English, the British are polite - but eventually somebody
      will let it out how funny some of these translations sound. Or else
      the Indians will take over the world's to-and-from English
      translation work and we'll all just have to learn to live
      with "whatever."

      Judy
      Having said that, there does seem to be a
      > culture of carelessness in this country. On Monday afternoon, I
      > took a walk around Mala Strana, in the course of which I passed
      the
      > Wallenstein Palace, home of the Czech Senate. The building has
      been
      > beautifully renovated, but all that good work is marred by a
      plaque
      > in English that reads something like:
      >
      > 'From 1996, the palace is seat of upper house of Czech Parliament.'
      >
      > How is it that someone contracted to translate a plaque to go on
      the
      > Czech SENATE did not have a proper grasp of English tenses, i.e.
      did
      > not know to write 'Since...has been...' (we'll ignore the lesser
      > mistakes)?
      >
      > Havel's offical site as President of the Czech Republic welcomed
      > visitors to *the* Prague Castle.
      >
      > Strict about their own language, Czechs can be very lax with
      English.
      >
      > Simon
    • raesim
      ... I suppose I meant that the laxity is in the assumption that all is well . I find it astonishing that someone assumed that the Senate plaque did not need
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1 7:42 AM
        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
        > I don't think it's as much laxness as lack of experience.
        >
        > Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
        > translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-
        > certified (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on
        > by a native speaker, and assume all is well.

        I suppose I meant that the laxity is in the assumption that 'all is
        well'. I find it astonishing that someone assumed that the Senate
        plaque did not need to be -- at least -- reviewed by a literate
        native speaker.

        > Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
        > missuse of English,

        Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.

        > the British are polite - but eventually somebody
        > will let it out how funny some of these translations sound.

        The tolerance and politeness of native speakers can lead Czechs (and
        all foreigners for that matter) to overestimate their abilities in
        English. Whereas the protectiveness of Czechs towards their
        language can make foreign learners insecure, the laissez-faire
        attitude of native English-speakers to English gives Czechs a false
        sense of security.

        Simon
      • raesim
        ... Of course, you d never catch me bungling my English. Simon
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 1 7:45 AM
          > > Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
          > > missuse of English,
          >
          > Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.

          Of course, you'd never catch me bungling my English.

          Simon
        • jsyeaton
          Yikes! J
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 1 7:49 AM
            Yikes!

            J


            > Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.
            >
            >
            > Simon
          • Michael Grant
            ... I m not Czech, but I think adding neco before malo should do it for your first example. Michael -- With a heavy dose of fear and violence... I think
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 1 8:09 AM
              On Apr 1, 2004, at 6:34 AM, raesim wrote:

              > At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs on
              > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us what's
              > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.

              I'm not Czech, but I think adding 'neco' before 'malo' should do it for
              your first example.
              Michael

              --
              "With a heavy dose of fear and violence... I think we can convince these
              people that we are here to help them."

              - US Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman in Iraq
            • Michael Grant
              ... Of course that s the same institution that once had a sign reading Please your luggage give to the wardrobe prominently displayed in its lobby.
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 1 8:18 AM
                On Apr 1, 2004, at 8:44 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                > Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
                > translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-certified
                > (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on by a native
                > speaker, and assume all is well.

                Of course that's the same institution that once had a sign reading

                Please your luggage
                give to the wardrobe

                prominently displayed in its lobby. (Admittedly, this was back in the
                bad old days, or shortly thereafter.)

                Michael
                who made a small donation just to keep his suitcase happy

                --
                Palm
                the space of rest
                the dress is raised. Long eitheruse of time does not become pain. It
                took a
                second look also
                the material, became feeling better.
              • spektrum2002
                Kdyby tam nebylo to began , tak bych napsal K vychodu prival vitr chlad od Mlznych hor . Takhle snad: Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 2 12:08 AM
                  Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival vitr
                  chlad od Mlznych hor".
                  Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                  Mlznych hor"
                  Petr Adamek
                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                  >
                  > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                  >
                  > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.
                  >
                  >> At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs on
                  > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us what's
                  > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.
                  >
                  > Simon
                • spektrum2002
                  Dodatecne mne napadlo, ze chlad cisi (c^is^i ): K vychodu zacisel vetrem od Mlznych hor chlad. P.A. ... on ... what s
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 2 12:25 AM
                    Dodatecne mne napadlo, ze chlad "cisi" (c^is^i'):
                    K vychodu zacisel vetrem od Mlznych hor chlad.
                    P.A.
                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...> wrote:
                    > Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival vitr
                    > chlad od Mlznych hor".
                    > Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                    > Mlznych hor"
                    > Petr Adamek
                    > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                    > >
                    > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                    > >
                    > > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.
                    > >
                    > >> At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs
                    on
                    > > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us
                    what's
                    > > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.
                    > >
                    > > Simon
                  • raesim
                    ... Your versions may well work better than the original translation in other respects, but like it they make the mistake of assuming that the wind is blowing
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 2 2:20 AM
                      > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                      > >
                      > > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.

                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...>
                      wrote:
                      > Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival
                      > vitr chlad od Mlznych hor".
                      > Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr
                      > od Mlznych hor"

                      Your versions may well work better than the original translation in
                      other respects, but like it they make the mistake of assuming that
                      the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                      can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                      of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at this
                      stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                      are to the east of the Fellowship.

                      Simon
                    • spektrum2002
                      A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena Wind blowing from the mountains to the west
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 2 2:48 AM
                        A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                        kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                        mountains to the west" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                        Petr A.
                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                        wrote:
                        > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.

                        they make the mistake of assuming that
                        > the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                        > can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                        > of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at
                        this
                        > stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                        > are to the east of the Fellowship.
                        >
                        > Simon
                      • Rubkova
                        As Simon has already said there is a map in the book. But the context seems to me obvious. Sarka ... From: spektrum2002 [mailto:padamek@chello.cz] Sent:
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 2 3:16 AM
                          As Simon has already said there is a map in the book. But the context seems
                          to me obvious.

                          Sarka

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: spektrum2002 [mailto:padamek@...]
                          Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 12:49 PM
                          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)


                          A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                          kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                          mountains to the west" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                          Petr A.
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                          wrote:
                          > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.

                          they make the mistake of assuming that
                          > the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                          > can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                          > of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at
                          this
                          > stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                          > are to the east of the Fellowship.
                          >
                          > Simon




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                        • raesim
                          ... Not jednoznacne, but I would have assumed that that was the more likely meaning. Mountains to the east feels like a stronger connection than blow...to
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 2 3:17 AM
                            > > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the
                            > > > > east.

                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...>
                            wrote:
                            > A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                            > kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                            > mountains to the [east]" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                            > Petr A.

                            Not jednoznacne, but I would have assumed that that was the more
                            likely meaning. 'Mountains to the east' feels like a stronger
                            connection than 'blow...to the east'. Had the author intended the
                            other meaning, I would have expected another construction:

                            A west wind [i.e. coming from the west] began to blow chill from...
                            A chill wind began to blow east from...
                            A wind began to blow chill to the east from...

                            But the point is that the translator had the full context (including
                            a map); she just failed to think.

                            Simon
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