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Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)

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  • raesim
    ... Kudos galore to Sarka. Wouldn t trochu also do? malo - little trochu - a little ... Oh, Sarka, now I m disappointed in you. ... But this is impressive.
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
      > Ja bych to prelozila ...a neco malo o jejich dejinach
      >
      > A druha veta: Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor na vychode.

      Kudos galore to Sarka.

      Wouldn't 'trochu' also do?

      malo - little
      trochu - a little

      > Podotykam, ze nejsem fanda teto knihy

      Oh, Sarka, now I'm disappointed in you.

      > a mapu jsem nukdy nevidela

      But this is impressive.

      Simon
    • Rubkova
      ... It would but I feel that neco malo is better sarka ... From: raesim [mailto:rachelandsimon@quick.cz] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:50 PM To:
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
        >Wouldn't 'trochu' also do?
        >
        > malo - little
        > trochu - a little

        It would but I feel that "neco malo" is better

        sarka

        -----Original Message-----
        From: raesim [mailto:rachelandsimon@...]
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:50 PM
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)


        > Ja bych to prelozila ...a neco malo o jejich dejinach
        >
        > A druha veta: Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor na vychode.

        Kudos galore to Sarka.



        > Podotykam, ze nejsem fanda teto knihy

        Oh, Sarka, now I'm disappointed in you.

        > a mapu jsem nukdy nevidela

        But this is impressive.

        Simon





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      • jsyeaton
        ... Look at history: Americans are hard to keep out. J
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
          wrote:
          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
          > > I'll go first so I can take the easy one:
          >
          > Actually, Judy, this competition is only open to Czechs. :-)
          >
          Look at history: Americans are hard to keep out.

          J
        • jsyeaton
          ... wrote: I don t think it s as much laxness as lack of experience. After all, for 40 years translators were taught - out of necessity - that it was possible
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
            wrote:
            I don't think it's as much laxness as lack of experience. After
            all, for 40 years translators were taught - out of necessity - that
            it was possible to "go into foreign," and there was certainly no one
            around to challenge their work.

            Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
            translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-certified
            (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on by a native
            speaker, and assume all is well.

            In Britain, with its colonial past, and the US, home of immigrants,
            we've always had enough native speakers from everywhere so that it
            has been possible to insist that translators work only into their
            native language. Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
            missuse of English, the British are polite - but eventually somebody
            will let it out how funny some of these translations sound. Or else
            the Indians will take over the world's to-and-from English
            translation work and we'll all just have to learn to live
            with "whatever."

            Judy
            Having said that, there does seem to be a
            > culture of carelessness in this country. On Monday afternoon, I
            > took a walk around Mala Strana, in the course of which I passed
            the
            > Wallenstein Palace, home of the Czech Senate. The building has
            been
            > beautifully renovated, but all that good work is marred by a
            plaque
            > in English that reads something like:
            >
            > 'From 1996, the palace is seat of upper house of Czech Parliament.'
            >
            > How is it that someone contracted to translate a plaque to go on
            the
            > Czech SENATE did not have a proper grasp of English tenses, i.e.
            did
            > not know to write 'Since...has been...' (we'll ignore the lesser
            > mistakes)?
            >
            > Havel's offical site as President of the Czech Republic welcomed
            > visitors to *the* Prague Castle.
            >
            > Strict about their own language, Czechs can be very lax with
            English.
            >
            > Simon
          • raesim
            ... I suppose I meant that the laxity is in the assumption that all is well . I find it astonishing that someone assumed that the Senate plaque did not need
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
              > I don't think it's as much laxness as lack of experience.
              >
              > Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
              > translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-
              > certified (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on
              > by a native speaker, and assume all is well.

              I suppose I meant that the laxity is in the assumption that 'all is
              well'. I find it astonishing that someone assumed that the Senate
              plaque did not need to be -- at least -- reviewed by a literate
              native speaker.

              > Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
              > missuse of English,

              Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.

              > the British are polite - but eventually somebody
              > will let it out how funny some of these translations sound.

              The tolerance and politeness of native speakers can lead Czechs (and
              all foreigners for that matter) to overestimate their abilities in
              English. Whereas the protectiveness of Czechs towards their
              language can make foreign learners insecure, the laissez-faire
              attitude of native English-speakers to English gives Czechs a false
              sense of security.

              Simon
            • raesim
              ... Of course, you d never catch me bungling my English. Simon
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
                > > Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
                > > missuse of English,
                >
                > Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.

                Of course, you'd never catch me bungling my English.

                Simon
              • jsyeaton
                Yikes! J
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
                  Yikes!

                  J


                  > Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.
                  >
                  >
                  > Simon
                • Michael Grant
                  ... I m not Czech, but I think adding neco before malo should do it for your first example. Michael -- With a heavy dose of fear and violence... I think
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
                    On Apr 1, 2004, at 6:34 AM, raesim wrote:

                    > At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs on
                    > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us what's
                    > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.

                    I'm not Czech, but I think adding 'neco' before 'malo' should do it for
                    your first example.
                    Michael

                    --
                    "With a heavy dose of fear and violence... I think we can convince these
                    people that we are here to help them."

                    - US Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman in Iraq
                  • Michael Grant
                    ... Of course that s the same institution that once had a sign reading Please your luggage give to the wardrobe prominently displayed in its lobby.
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
                      On Apr 1, 2004, at 8:44 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                      > Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
                      > translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-certified
                      > (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on by a native
                      > speaker, and assume all is well.

                      Of course that's the same institution that once had a sign reading

                      Please your luggage
                      give to the wardrobe

                      prominently displayed in its lobby. (Admittedly, this was back in the
                      bad old days, or shortly thereafter.)

                      Michael
                      who made a small donation just to keep his suitcase happy

                      --
                      Palm
                      the space of rest
                      the dress is raised. Long eitheruse of time does not become pain. It
                      took a
                      second look also
                      the material, became feeling better.
                    • spektrum2002
                      Kdyby tam nebylo to began , tak bych napsal K vychodu prival vitr chlad od Mlznych hor . Takhle snad: Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
                        Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival vitr
                        chlad od Mlznych hor".
                        Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                        Mlznych hor"
                        Petr Adamek
                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                        >
                        > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                        >
                        > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.
                        >
                        >> At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs on
                        > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us what's
                        > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.
                        >
                        > Simon
                      • spektrum2002
                        Dodatecne mne napadlo, ze chlad cisi (c^is^i ): K vychodu zacisel vetrem od Mlznych hor chlad. P.A. ... on ... what s
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
                          Dodatecne mne napadlo, ze chlad "cisi" (c^is^i'):
                          K vychodu zacisel vetrem od Mlznych hor chlad.
                          P.A.
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...> wrote:
                          > Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival vitr
                          > chlad od Mlznych hor".
                          > Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                          > Mlznych hor"
                          > Petr Adamek
                          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                          > >
                          > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                          > >
                          > > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.
                          > >
                          > >> At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs
                          on
                          > > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us
                          what's
                          > > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.
                          > >
                          > > Simon
                        • raesim
                          ... Your versions may well work better than the original translation in other respects, but like it they make the mistake of assuming that the wind is blowing
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
                            > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                            > >
                            > > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.

                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...>
                            wrote:
                            > Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival
                            > vitr chlad od Mlznych hor".
                            > Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr
                            > od Mlznych hor"

                            Your versions may well work better than the original translation in
                            other respects, but like it they make the mistake of assuming that
                            the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                            can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                            of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at this
                            stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                            are to the east of the Fellowship.

                            Simon
                          • spektrum2002
                            A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena Wind blowing from the mountains to the west
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
                              A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                              kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                              mountains to the west" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                              Petr A.
                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                              wrote:
                              > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.

                              they make the mistake of assuming that
                              > the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                              > can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                              > of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at
                              this
                              > stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                              > are to the east of the Fellowship.
                              >
                              > Simon
                            • Rubkova
                              As Simon has already said there is a map in the book. But the context seems to me obvious. Sarka ... From: spektrum2002 [mailto:padamek@chello.cz] Sent:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
                                As Simon has already said there is a map in the book. But the context seems
                                to me obvious.

                                Sarka

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: spektrum2002 [mailto:padamek@...]
                                Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 12:49 PM
                                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)


                                A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                                kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                                mountains to the west" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                                Petr A.
                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                                wrote:
                                > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.

                                they make the mistake of assuming that
                                > the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                                > can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                                > of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at
                                this
                                > stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                                > are to the east of the Fellowship.
                                >
                                > Simon




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                              • raesim
                                ... Not jednoznacne, but I would have assumed that that was the more likely meaning. Mountains to the east feels like a stronger connection than blow...to
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
                                  > > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the
                                  > > > > east.

                                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                                  > kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                                  > mountains to the [east]" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                                  > Petr A.

                                  Not jednoznacne, but I would have assumed that that was the more
                                  likely meaning. 'Mountains to the east' feels like a stronger
                                  connection than 'blow...to the east'. Had the author intended the
                                  other meaning, I would have expected another construction:

                                  A west wind [i.e. coming from the west] began to blow chill from...
                                  A chill wind began to blow east from...
                                  A wind began to blow chill to the east from...

                                  But the point is that the translator had the full context (including
                                  a map); she just failed to think.

                                  Simon
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