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Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)

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  • raesim
    ... Actually, Judy, this competition is only open to Czechs. :-) ... Plenty, I should think. In my message, I did allow for the possibility that translators
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
      > I'll go first so I can take the easy one:

      Actually, Judy, this competition is only open to Czechs. :-)

      > BTW, I wonder how many mistakes there are in translations
      > of "Svejk"?

      Plenty, I should think. In my message, I did allow for the
      possibility that translators working in other combinations were just
      as prone to error. Having said that, there does seem to be a
      culture of carelessness in this country. On Monday afternoon, I
      took a walk around Mala Strana, in the course of which I passed the
      Wallenstein Palace, home of the Czech Senate. The building has been
      beautifully renovated, but all that good work is marred by a plaque
      in English that reads something like:

      'From 1996, the palace is seat of upper house of Czech Parliament.'

      How is it that someone contracted to translate a plaque to go on the
      Czech SENATE did not have a proper grasp of English tenses, i.e. did
      not know to write 'Since...has been...' (we'll ignore the lesser
      mistakes)?

      Havel's offical site as President of the Czech Republic welcomed
      visitors to *the* Prague Castle.

      Strict about their own language, Czechs can be very lax with English.

      Simon
    • raesim
      ... Kudos galore to Sarka. Wouldn t trochu also do? malo - little trochu - a little ... Oh, Sarka, now I m disappointed in you. ... But this is impressive.
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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        > Ja bych to prelozila ...a neco malo o jejich dejinach
        >
        > A druha veta: Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor na vychode.

        Kudos galore to Sarka.

        Wouldn't 'trochu' also do?

        malo - little
        trochu - a little

        > Podotykam, ze nejsem fanda teto knihy

        Oh, Sarka, now I'm disappointed in you.

        > a mapu jsem nukdy nevidela

        But this is impressive.

        Simon
      • Rubkova
        ... It would but I feel that neco malo is better sarka ... From: raesim [mailto:rachelandsimon@quick.cz] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:50 PM To:
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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          >Wouldn't 'trochu' also do?
          >
          > malo - little
          > trochu - a little

          It would but I feel that "neco malo" is better

          sarka

          -----Original Message-----
          From: raesim [mailto:rachelandsimon@...]
          Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:50 PM
          To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)


          > Ja bych to prelozila ...a neco malo o jejich dejinach
          >
          > A druha veta: Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor na vychode.

          Kudos galore to Sarka.



          > Podotykam, ze nejsem fanda teto knihy

          Oh, Sarka, now I'm disappointed in you.

          > a mapu jsem nukdy nevidela

          But this is impressive.

          Simon





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        • jsyeaton
          ... Look at history: Americans are hard to keep out. J
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
            wrote:
            > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
            > > I'll go first so I can take the easy one:
            >
            > Actually, Judy, this competition is only open to Czechs. :-)
            >
            Look at history: Americans are hard to keep out.

            J
          • jsyeaton
            ... wrote: I don t think it s as much laxness as lack of experience. After all, for 40 years translators were taught - out of necessity - that it was possible
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
              wrote:
              I don't think it's as much laxness as lack of experience. After
              all, for 40 years translators were taught - out of necessity - that
              it was possible to "go into foreign," and there was certainly no one
              around to challenge their work.

              Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
              translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-certified
              (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on by a native
              speaker, and assume all is well.

              In Britain, with its colonial past, and the US, home of immigrants,
              we've always had enough native speakers from everywhere so that it
              has been possible to insist that translators work only into their
              native language. Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
              missuse of English, the British are polite - but eventually somebody
              will let it out how funny some of these translations sound. Or else
              the Indians will take over the world's to-and-from English
              translation work and we'll all just have to learn to live
              with "whatever."

              Judy
              Having said that, there does seem to be a
              > culture of carelessness in this country. On Monday afternoon, I
              > took a walk around Mala Strana, in the course of which I passed
              the
              > Wallenstein Palace, home of the Czech Senate. The building has
              been
              > beautifully renovated, but all that good work is marred by a
              plaque
              > in English that reads something like:
              >
              > 'From 1996, the palace is seat of upper house of Czech Parliament.'
              >
              > How is it that someone contracted to translate a plaque to go on
              the
              > Czech SENATE did not have a proper grasp of English tenses, i.e.
              did
              > not know to write 'Since...has been...' (we'll ignore the lesser
              > mistakes)?
              >
              > Havel's offical site as President of the Czech Republic welcomed
              > visitors to *the* Prague Castle.
              >
              > Strict about their own language, Czechs can be very lax with
              English.
              >
              > Simon
            • raesim
              ... I suppose I meant that the laxity is in the assumption that all is well . I find it astonishing that someone assumed that the Senate plaque did not need
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "jsyeaton" <jsyeaton@y...> wrote:
                > I don't think it's as much laxness as lack of experience.
                >
                > Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
                > translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-
                > certified (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on
                > by a native speaker, and assume all is well.

                I suppose I meant that the laxity is in the assumption that 'all is
                well'. I find it astonishing that someone assumed that the Senate
                plaque did not need to be -- at least -- reviewed by a literate
                native speaker.

                > Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
                > missuse of English,

                Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.

                > the British are polite - but eventually somebody
                > will let it out how funny some of these translations sound.

                The tolerance and politeness of native speakers can lead Czechs (and
                all foreigners for that matter) to overestimate their abilities in
                English. Whereas the protectiveness of Czechs towards their
                language can make foreign learners insecure, the laissez-faire
                attitude of native English-speakers to English gives Czechs a false
                sense of security.

                Simon
              • raesim
                ... Of course, you d never catch me bungling my English. Simon
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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                  > > Americans are tolerant (to a fault) about the
                  > > missuse of English,
                  >
                  > Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.

                  Of course, you'd never catch me bungling my English.

                  Simon
                • jsyeaton
                  Yikes! J
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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                    Yikes!

                    J


                    > Misuse. :-) I'm just trying not to a tolerant to a fault.
                    >
                    >
                    > Simon
                  • Michael Grant
                    ... I m not Czech, but I think adding neco before malo should do it for your first example. Michael -- With a heavy dose of fear and violence... I think
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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                      On Apr 1, 2004, at 6:34 AM, raesim wrote:

                      > At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs on
                      > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us what's
                      > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.

                      I'm not Czech, but I think adding 'neco' before 'malo' should do it for
                      your first example.
                      Michael

                      --
                      "With a heavy dose of fear and violence... I think we can convince these
                      people that we are here to help them."

                      - US Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman in Iraq
                    • Michael Grant
                      ... Of course that s the same institution that once had a sign reading Please your luggage give to the wardrobe prominently displayed in its lobby.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 1, 2004
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                        On Apr 1, 2004, at 8:44 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                        > Now institutions (the National Museum, Lord help us!) order
                        > translations in all good faith from agencies that are ISO-certified
                        > (in some cases) and promise to have everything passed on by a native
                        > speaker, and assume all is well.

                        Of course that's the same institution that once had a sign reading

                        Please your luggage
                        give to the wardrobe

                        prominently displayed in its lobby. (Admittedly, this was back in the
                        bad old days, or shortly thereafter.)

                        Michael
                        who made a small donation just to keep his suitcase happy

                        --
                        Palm
                        the space of rest
                        the dress is raised. Long eitheruse of time does not become pain. It
                        took a
                        second look also
                        the material, became feeling better.
                      • spektrum2002
                        Kdyby tam nebylo to began , tak bych napsal K vychodu prival vitr chlad od Mlznych hor . Takhle snad: Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
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                          Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival vitr
                          chlad od Mlznych hor".
                          Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                          Mlznych hor"
                          Petr Adamek
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                          >
                          > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                          >
                          > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.
                          >
                          >> At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs on
                          > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us what's
                          > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.
                          >
                          > Simon
                        • spektrum2002
                          Dodatecne mne napadlo, ze chlad cisi (c^is^i ): K vychodu zacisel vetrem od Mlznych hor chlad. P.A. ... on ... what s
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
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                            Dodatecne mne napadlo, ze chlad "cisi" (c^is^i'):
                            K vychodu zacisel vetrem od Mlznych hor chlad.
                            P.A.
                            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...> wrote:
                            > Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival vitr
                            > chlad od Mlznych hor".
                            > Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr od
                            > Mlznych hor"
                            > Petr Adamek
                            > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                            > >
                            > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                            > >
                            > > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.
                            > >
                            > >> At the risk of inciting people to show off, I invite the Czechs
                            on
                            > > the list to, like Faramir, 'show their quality' and tell us
                            what's
                            > > wrong with the above translations and how to correct them.
                            > >
                            > > Simon
                          • raesim
                            ... Your versions may well work better than the original translation in other respects, but like it they make the mistake of assuming that the wind is blowing
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
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                              > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.
                              > >
                              > > Studeny vitr zacal vat od Mlznych hor k vychodu.

                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...>
                              wrote:
                              > Kdyby tam nebylo to "began", tak bych napsal "K vychodu prival
                              > vitr chlad od Mlznych hor".
                              > Takhle snad: "Zacal byt citit chlad, ktery k vychodu prival vitr
                              > od Mlznych hor"

                              Your versions may well work better than the original translation in
                              other respects, but like it they make the mistake of assuming that
                              the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                              can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                              of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at this
                              stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                              are to the east of the Fellowship.

                              Simon
                            • spektrum2002
                              A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena Wind blowing from the mountains to the west
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
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                                A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                                kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                                mountains to the west" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                                Petr A.
                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                                wrote:
                                > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.

                                they make the mistake of assuming that
                                > the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                                > can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                                > of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at
                                this
                                > stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                                > are to the east of the Fellowship.
                                >
                                > Simon
                              • Rubkova
                                As Simon has already said there is a map in the book. But the context seems to me obvious. Sarka ... From: spektrum2002 [mailto:padamek@chello.cz] Sent:
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
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                                  As Simon has already said there is a map in the book. But the context seems
                                  to me obvious.

                                  Sarka

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: spektrum2002 [mailto:padamek@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 12:49 PM
                                  To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Lawdy! (was: Translation Gems in Movies)


                                  A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                                  kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                                  mountains to the west" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                                  Petr A.
                                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "raesim" <rachelandsimon@q...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east.

                                  they make the mistake of assuming that
                                  > the wind is blowing to the east. It's blowing to the west, and we
                                  > can be sure of this because the Fellowship is on the westward side
                                  > of the mountains: climatic conditions on the other side are, at
                                  this
                                  > stage of the story, irrelevant. You see, it's the mountains that
                                  > are to the east of the Fellowship.
                                  >
                                  > Simon




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                                • raesim
                                  ... Not jednoznacne, but I would have assumed that that was the more likely meaning. Mountains to the east feels like a stronger connection than blow...to
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 2, 2004
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                                    > > > > A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the
                                    > > > > east.

                                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "spektrum2002" <padamek@c...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > A je ten smer vetru (tj. na zapad) jednoznacny pro NS, jenz nezna
                                    > kontext, ktery uvadite? Cili: Znamena "Wind blowing from the
                                    > mountains to the [east]" jednoznacne "od hor lezicich na vychod"?
                                    > Petr A.

                                    Not jednoznacne, but I would have assumed that that was the more
                                    likely meaning. 'Mountains to the east' feels like a stronger
                                    connection than 'blow...to the east'. Had the author intended the
                                    other meaning, I would have expected another construction:

                                    A west wind [i.e. coming from the west] began to blow chill from...
                                    A chill wind began to blow east from...
                                    A wind began to blow chill to the east from...

                                    But the point is that the translator had the full context (including
                                    a map); she just failed to think.

                                    Simon
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