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OBCHODNE: mnozstvi uctovaneho textu

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  • Jirka Bolech
    Ahoj Petre, ... textu... ... Neni to z me hlavy. Inspirovala me kdysi Lantra-L. Zrovna tak jako v uctovani podle poctu slov, ne normostran ci klavesovych
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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      Ahoj Petre,

      > > P.S.: znak sem, znak tam, úctuji podle poctu slov a to zdrojoveho
      textu...
      >
      > Vazne?
      > Jasne, ze nema smysl zbytecne to natahovat a nekdy uz si clovek z duse
      > preje, aby to rychleji odsypalo a on uz to konecne dodelal, ale uctovat
      > podle ZDROJOVEHO textu? To bych osobne nebral, co si odklepu, to si
      > vyuctuju.

      Neni to z me hlavy. Inspirovala me kdysi Lantra-L. Zrovna tak jako v
      uctovani podle poctu slov, ne normostran ci klavesovych uhozu. Produktivita
      je stejne vzdy nakonec vyjadrena jako penize za casovou jednotku, ale jde
      asi o to, aby klient citil ferove jednani a nemel pocit, ze lze s cenou
      manipulovat...

      Jirka Bolech
    • Martin Janda
      Ja myslim, ze vsechno se odviji od typu obsluhovanych klientu. Klienti ve svete, a dnes uz i lokalizacni firmy v Cesku, pocitaji slova originalu. Tuzemsti
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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        Ja myslim, ze vsechno se odviji od typu obsluhovanych klientu. Klienti ve
        svete, a dnes uz i lokalizacni firmy v Cesku, pocitaji slova originalu.
        Tuzemsti zakaznici vesmes ocekavaji fakturaci podle NS prekladu, tak proc je
        o to sidit?

        Ten rozdil stejne neni zadna velka rana.... plus minus 10%, vetsinou min...

        Osobne je mi u uctovani dle originalu prijemne, ze muzu zbytecne ukecany a
        neohrabany zdrojovy text psat jednoduseji a strucneji, a pritom na to
        nedoplacim z vlastni kapsy.

        Martin

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@...>
        To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 1:36 PM
        Subject: [Czechlist] OBCHODNE: mnozstvi uctovaneho textu


        > Ahoj Petre,
        >
        > > > P.S.: znak sem, znak tam, úctuji podle poctu slov a to zdrojoveho
        > textu...
        > >
        > > Vazne?
        > > Jasne, ze nema smysl zbytecne to natahovat a nekdy uz si clovek z duse
        > > preje, aby to rychleji odsypalo a on uz to konecne dodelal, ale uctovat
        > > podle ZDROJOVEHO textu? To bych osobne nebral, co si odklepu, to si
        > > vyuctuju.
        >
        > Neni to z me hlavy. Inspirovala me kdysi Lantra-L. Zrovna tak jako v
        > uctovani podle poctu slov, ne normostran ci klavesovych uhozu.
        Produktivita
        > je stejne vzdy nakonec vyjadrena jako penize za casovou jednotku, ale jde
        > asi o to, aby klient citil ferove jednani a nemel pocit, ze lze s cenou
        > manipulovat...
        >
        > Jirka Bolech
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Czechlist Users' Guide:
        >
        > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7953/newfaq.html
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Petr Veselý
        ... Produktivita ... Kdyz uz jsme to nakousli, jak uctujes podle poctu slov? Respektive je nejaky vzorec urcujici jaky pocet slov je ekvivalentni NS? Ja se
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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          >
          > Neni to z me hlavy. Inspirovala me kdysi Lantra-L. Zrovna tak jako v
          > uctovani podle poctu slov, ne normostran ci klavesovych uhozu.
          Produktivita
          > je stejne vzdy nakonec vyjadrena jako penize za casovou jednotku, ale jde
          > asi o to, aby klient citil ferove jednani a nemel pocit, ze lze s cenou
          > manipulovat...
          >

          Kdyz uz jsme to nakousli, jak uctujes podle poctu slov? Respektive je nejaky
          vzorec urcujici jaky pocet slov je ekvivalentni NS? Ja se zatim pohybuji v
          dimenzich NS a kdyby po me nekdo chtel sazbu za slovo, tak bych mu ji nebyl
          schopen rict.
          P.S. I kdyz i uctovani podle slov muze byt sporne, IMHO. V ruznych
          programech ti wordcount muze vyjit jinak (Word, Wordfast, Trados.....), jaky
          je tedy ten spravny soucet, ha?

          Petr
        • Martin Janda
          Cca 250 -300 slov na NS, cestina min, anglictina vic. Ja uz to neprepocitavam, ridim se podle aktualnich cen na konkretnim trhu. Wordcount urcujes dle formatu
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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            Cca 250 -300 slov na NS, cestina min, anglictina vic.

            Ja uz to neprepocitavam, ridim se podle aktualnich cen na konkretnim trhu.
            Wordcount urcujes dle formatu pozadovaneho zkaznikem - kdych chce Trados,
            neni co resit. Skoro kazdy chce Trados, jeste jsem neslysel o zakaznikovi,
            ktery by se vylozene dozadoval Worfastu ;-)
            Kdyz se prekladace aktivne nedozaduje, no tak mu ho samozrejme nevnucuju a
            spocitam to podle Wordu

            Ale vetsina agentur uctujicich dle zdroje uz ma dneska spocitano predem,
            kolik ti vlastne bude platit. Takze to jen zkontrolujes a neresis :-)

            Osobne drobne diskrepance (par procent) neresim - prizen zakaznika
            neotraveneho handrkovanim o 200 slov mi za to stoji. Leda by to delal
            systematicky a jeste malo platil :-D

            M



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Petr Veselý" <veselypetr@...>
            To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 1:55 PM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] OBCHODNE: mnozstvi uctovaneho textu


            > >
            > > Neni to z me hlavy. Inspirovala me kdysi Lantra-L. Zrovna tak jako v
            > > uctovani podle poctu slov, ne normostran ci klavesovych uhozu.
            > Produktivita
            > > je stejne vzdy nakonec vyjadrena jako penize za casovou jednotku, ale
            jde
            > > asi o to, aby klient citil ferove jednani a nemel pocit, ze lze s cenou
            > > manipulovat...
            > >
            >
            > Kdyz uz jsme to nakousli, jak uctujes podle poctu slov? Respektive je
            nejaky
            > vzorec urcujici jaky pocet slov je ekvivalentni NS? Ja se zatim pohybuji v
            > dimenzich NS a kdyby po me nekdo chtel sazbu za slovo, tak bych mu ji
            nebyl
            > schopen rict.
            > P.S. I kdyz i uctovani podle slov muze byt sporne, IMHO. V ruznych
            > programech ti wordcount muze vyjit jinak (Word, Wordfast, Trados.....),
            jaky
            > je tedy ten spravny soucet, ha?
            >
            > Petr
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Czechlist Users' Guide:
            >
            > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7953/newfaq.html
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Jirka Bolech
            Petre, ... jaky ... To je v podstate otazkou dohody nebo formatu, v kterem je text k prekladu dodan. Nedelam to tak, ale jedna moznost je, ze klient sam urci
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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              Petre,

              > P.S. I kdyz i uctovani podle slov muze byt sporne, IMHO. V ruznych
              > programech ti wordcount muze vyjit jinak (Word, Wordfast, Trados.....),
              jaky
              > je tedy ten spravny soucet, ha?

              To je v podstate otazkou dohody nebo formatu, v kterem je text k prekladu
              dodan. Nedelam to tak, ale jedna moznost je, ze klient sam urci pocet slov a
              prekladatel to muze rozporovat ci upravit sazbu pokud mu to nevoni.

              Co se tyka prepoctu na normostrany nebo z normostran, vyjde to u kazdeho
              textu samozrejme trochu jinak, takze napriklad tvrzeni, ze 300 Kc za
              normostranu je to samé jako 1 Kc za slovo nebude vzdy pravda, proste to bude
              kolisat (ty hodnoty jsem zvolil pouze jako priklad proto, ze nejhrubejsi
              vyjadreni vztahu mezi normostranou a poctem slov by mohlo byt 1:300). I
              dlouhodoby prumer musi nutne vychazet kazdemu o chloupek jinak a na
              dukladnou statistiku nejsou lidi.

              Ted vidim, ze Martin psal rychleji nez ja, ale vyjadril zhruba to same....

              Jirka Bolech
            • jsyeaton
              ... Hi, Word-counting is a contentious point in the US, too, but usually an agency will accept the Word word-count as long as it s within about 10% of their
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Jirka Bolech" <jirka.bolech@s...> wrote:
                > Petre,
                >
                > > P.S. I kdyz i uctovani podle slov muze byt sporne, IMHO. V ruznych
                > > programech ti wordcount muze vyjit jinak (Word, Wordfast, Trados.....),
                > jaky
                > > je tedy ten spravny soucet, ha?
                >
                > > Jirka Bolech

                Hi,

                Word-counting is a contentious point in the US, too, but usually an agency will accept the "Word" word-count as long as it's within about 10% of their count or estimate. It seems to be standard practice to charge on the basis of the translated file, if only because that's almost certain to be in an electronic (countable) form, whereas the original is often a (very bad) fax. Agencies, I've observed, are usually willing to accept the translator's method of estimating his effort as long as it appears to give a reasonable figure. (At least in the States - I don't work for Czech agencies.)

                If you work in both markets, it's probably worth the time to make up a table of equivalents in Kc/NS and GBP/euro/1000 words and US$/1000 words (usually quoted as cents per word). When I checked around the web to come up with an average word-length for English to use in the conversion, I found 6.5 (including the space), but of course this varies depending on style.

                Judy
              • Michael Grant
                ... Je to odlisne u jednotlivych jazyku, ale u CJ a AJ je to zhruba (!) 275 slov na NS. Michael -- Sovereign people do not beg of, or negotiate with
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 6, 2004
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                  On Mar 6, 2004, at 6:55 AM, Petr Veselý wrote:

                  > Respektive je nejaky
                  > vzorec urcujici jaky pocet slov je ekvivalentni NS?

                  Je to odlisne u jednotlivych jazyku, ale u CJ a AJ je to zhruba (!) 275
                  slov na NS.
                  Michael

                  --
                  Sovereign people do not beg of, or negotiate with subordinate entities
                  which we created--sovereign people _instruct_ subordinate entities.

                  - Richard Grossman, POCLAD
                  <http://www.poclad.org/>
                • jsyeaton
                  ... ing final (English) word counts from a Czech original, and I usually tell th= em 25% (so their client will be delighted when it appears to come in under-b=
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 7, 2004
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                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grant <trans@b...> wrote:
                    > On Mar 6, 2004, at 6:55 AM, Petr Veselý wrote:
                    >
                    > > Respektive je nejaky
                    > > vzorec urcujici jaky pocet slov je ekvivalentni NS?
                    >
                    > Je to odlisne u jednotlivych jazyku, ale u CJ a AJ je to zhruba (!) 275
                    > slov na NS.
                    > Michael
                    >
                    BTW - agencies sometimes ask me for an "expansion factor" to use in estimat=
                    ing final (English) word counts from a Czech original, and I usually tell th=
                    em 25% (so their client will be delighted when it appears to come in under-b=
                    udget). I suppose it's all those articles, and prepositions used instead of=
                    cases, - at least, that's how I explain my comparative wordiness.

                    Does anybody know of a more authoritative source of such factors for CZ, SK=
                    , RU etc?

                    Judy
                  • Michael Grant
                    ... That seems extremely high to me--even for German with its love of endless compound words, the expansion factor to English is only around 20%. Unless
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 7, 2004
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                      On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:36 AM, jsyeaton wrote:

                      > BTW - agencies sometimes ask me for an "expansion factor" to use in
                      > estimat=
                      > ing final (English) word counts from a Czech original, and I usually
                      > tell th=
                      > em 25% (so their client will be delighted when it appears to come in
                      > under-b=
                      > udget). I suppose it's all those articles, and prepositions used
                      > instead of=
                      > cases, - at least, that's how I explain my comparative wordiness.

                      That seems extremely high to me--even for German with its love of
                      endless compound words, the expansion factor to English is only around
                      20%. Unless there's an issue of country-specific terminology that has
                      to be extensively paraphrased, I consistently get expansion of less
                      than 10% in either direction between Czech and English. I think an
                      overall tendency to wordiness in Czech style compared to well-written
                      English more or less makes up for the lack of articles and
                      prepositions.


                      > Does anybody know of a more authoritative source of such factors for
                      > CZ, SK=
                      > , RU etc?

                      I don't know about authoritative, but I recently surveyed Lantra on the
                      issue. For Russian the conclusion was about a 10% expansion in
                      wordcount and 12% *contraction* in character count going into English.
                      For Czech I'd estimate around 5% expansion on average, which is
                      considerably less than the variation from one document to another and
                      thus negligible. I don't have enough Slovak documents with accurate
                      wordcounts to reach any conclusions, but my impression is that Slovak
                      style is often less flowery or formal than Czech, so I would expect a
                      larger expansion factor going from Slovak to English.

                      But if the translator is not a target-language native speaker, tack on
                      another 10-15% just for that.

                      Michael

                      --
                      Wenn über eine olle Sache
                      man wieder Gras gewachsen ist,
                      kommt sicher so'n Kamel jelofen,
                      das alles wieder runter frisst.

                      - Stefan Sulke
                    • jsyeaton
                      ... But German has articles and multiple-word verb forms and doesn t use cases the way does Czech does: that would tend to keep it more like English - it s
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 7, 2004
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                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grant <trans@b...> wrote:
                        > On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:36 AM, jsyeaton wrote:
                        >
                        > That seems extremely high to me--even for German with its love of
                        > endless compound words, the expansion factor to English is only around
                        > 20%.

                        But German has articles and multiple-word verb forms and doesn't use cases the way does Czech does: that would tend to keep it more like English - it's the little things that add up, I think.

                        Somebody (http://nl.ijs.si/ME/CD/docs/mte-d21f/node8.html) who had plenty of time available did word-counts on translations of "1984" and came up with the following figures. (Does Romanian have articles?) Too bad they didn't do German and Russian while they were at it.

                        English 104.302
                        Romanian 101.460
                        Slovene 91.619
                        Bulgarian 87.235
                        Czech 80.366
                        Hungarian 81.147
                        Estonian 79.334

                        101.5/80.4 = 1.26, which sounds awfully high - as I said, I used 25% as a worst-case possibility.

                        I haven't kept word-counts of Czech etc. originals, but when I over-write in Word files for a client that formats exactly according to the original, I know it doesn't expand any 26% percent.

                        Judy
                      • Michael Grant
                        ... My figure for German is based on several hundred thousand words of my own work, so I m quite confident of it. Unfortunately a lot of the Czech I get is in
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 7, 2004
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                          On Mar 7, 2004, at 4:33 PM, jsyeaton wrote:

                          > --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Grant <trans@b...> wrote:
                          >> On Mar 7, 2004, at 7:36 AM, jsyeaton wrote:
                          >>
                          >> That seems extremely high to me--even for German with its love of
                          >> endless compound words, the expansion factor to English is only around
                          >> 20%.
                          >
                          > But German has articles and multiple-word verb forms and doesn't use
                          > cases the way does Czech does: that would tend to keep it more like
                          > English - it's the little things that add up, I think.

                          My figure for German is based on several hundred thousand words of my
                          own work, so I'm quite confident of it. Unfortunately a lot of the
                          Czech I get is in hard copy or fax form, so I don't have the same
                          volume of reliable wordcounts, but based on about 25,000 words of
                          material on my hard disk that is countable I get an average expansion
                          from Czech to English of about 7%--so a little higher than I thought,
                          but still in a completely different ballpark from 25%.


                          >
                          > Somebody (http://nl.ijs.si/ME/CD/docs/mte-d21f/node8.html) who had
                          > plenty of time available did word-counts on translations of "1984" and
                          > came up with the following figures. (Does Romanian have articles?)
                          > Too bad they didn't do German and Russian while they were at it.
                          >
                          > English 104.302
                          > Romanian 101.460
                          > Slovene 91.619
                          > Bulgarian 87.235
                          > Czech 80.366
                          > Hungarian 81.147
                          > Estonian 79.334
                          >
                          > 101.5/80.4 = 1.26, which sounds awfully high - as I said, I used 25%
                          > as a worst-case possibility.

                          I'd want to look very carefully at those translations to make sure
                          there were no cuts before accepting those statistics.

                          Michael

                          --
                          The Utah Jazz know where their butt is breaded.
                          - Quinn Buckner
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