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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Food versus foodstuff

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  • Petr Veselý
    ... Me too.The thing is, two months ago I translated a presentation for a dairy and it contained this sentence ...mlecne produkty patri k potravinam, jez
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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      > In the very end I conclude that I would go for "food". I am curious
      > on responses from English native speakers.
      >
      Me too.The thing is, two months ago I translated a presentation for a dairy
      and it contained this sentence "...mlecne produkty patri k potravinam, jez
      lidstvo vyrabi od nepameti..." I translated "potraviny" as food but the
      proofreader did not like it and replaced it with "foodstuffs", that's why I
      am hesitant now.

      One more question to Karel (or anybody competent)

      the project also mentions "krmivo zivocisneho / rostlinneho puvodu"; is it
      correct to say animal / vegetable fodder or would this compound mean that
      the fodder is aimed for animals / plants rather than that it is made of
      animals / plants. To avoid ambiguities, I've used fodder of animal /
      vegetable origin but it sounds like a Czenglish to me. If the former term is
      OK as for the meaning, I would gladly replace the latter one with it.

      Petr
    • karel6005
      ... animal / vegetable fodder Incorrect. Fodder = objemne krmivo (cf. jadrne krmivo or koncentraty or (krmne) smesi or the like). Feed is the
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Petr Veselý <veselypetr@p...>
        wrote:
        > "krmivo zivocisneho / rostlinneho puvodu"; is it correct to say
        animal / vegetable fodder

        Incorrect. "Fodder" = "objemne krmivo" (cf. "jadrne krmivo"
        or "koncentraty" or "(krmne) smesi" or the like).

        "Feed" is the correct word.

        "Animal feed" = "krmivo pro zvirata" (but this is IMHO a pleonasm,
        of course "feed" is not for humans!)


        > I've used fodder of animal / vegetable origin but it sounds like a
        Czenglish to me.

        "Feed of animal origin" is referred to on gov.uk and usda.gov pages.
        I would not be afraid of Czenglish in this case.

        "Feed of vegetable origin" appears on usda.gov pages but somehow I
        would like more "feed of plant origin". This is shown on gov.uk,
        fao.org and usda.gov pages as well.

        HTH

        (And arguments from NS welcome!)

        Karel
      • andeds@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/3/04 11:22:58 AM GMT Standard Time, karel6005@hotmail.com writes:
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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          In a message dated 2/3/04 11:22:58 AM GMT Standard Time,
          karel6005@... writes:

          << In the very end I conclude that I would go for "food". I am curious
          on responses from English native speakers.
          >>

          On an everyday level we talk about "pet food".

          More formally, and in more specialised contexts, it's "animal feed".

          Has anyone else met the term "feedstuffs" - not really a proper English word,
          but I did discover it in an EU Directive a few years ago. I used it in one
          translation only, because the document was referring to that EU Directive.

          "Fodder" sounds very agricultural and I associate it especially with cattle,
          i.e. you wouldn't, of course, give fodder to a cat or dog.

          Dylan
        • Petr Veselý
          Many thanks, Karel and Dylan, ... I started with feed but I replaced it by fodder in order not to confuse it with food. I thought that fodder and feed
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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            Many thanks, Karel and Dylan,

            > wrote:
            > > "krmivo zivocisneho / rostlinneho puvodu"; is it correct to say
            > animal / vegetable fodder
            >
            > Incorrect. "Fodder" = "objemne krmivo" (cf. "jadrne krmivo"
            > or "koncentraty" or "(krmne) smesi" or the like).
            >
            > "Feed" is the correct word.

            I started with "feed" but I replaced it by fodder in order not to confuse it
            with food. I thought that "fodder" and "feed" are more or less synonyms.
            However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to the feeding
            of cattle (sometimes chickens). It doesn't not refer to pet food.
            Would the "fodder" be inappropriate in this context too?
            >
            > "Animal feed" = "krmivo pro zvirata" (but this is IMHO a pleonasm,
            > of course "feed" is not for humans!)
            >
            The problem is, even though it is clear that feed is not aimed for people,
            IMHO, the term "animal feed" just indicates (as you translated it) that it
            is aimed for animals, however, we don't know if the feed is made of animals
            or plants. This difference is the heart of the matter here, they
            differentiate "krmivo rostlinneho puvodu" and "krmivo zivocisneho puvodu" so
            I will continue using "feed of animal origin" rather than "animal feed".


            Petr
          • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
            ... They are synonyms, except that we use fodder in many metaphorical ways that we don t use feed . For example, soldiers in an army that is sent to fight
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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              In a message dated 2/3/2004 7:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, veselypetr@... writes:

              > I started with "feed" but I replaced it by fodder in order not to confuse it
              > with food. I thought that "fodder" and "feed" are more or less synonyms.

              They are synonyms, except that we use "fodder" in many metaphorical ways that we don't use "feed". For example, soldiers in an army that is sent to fight even though everyone knows they are sure to lose are called "cannon fodder".

              > However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to the feeding
              > of cattle (sometimes chickens). It doesn't not refer to pet food.

              Then I think that in the US the most common word to use would be "feed".

              > Would the "fodder" be inappropriate in this context too?

              No, but it would be less common (at least in my country).

              > > "Animal feed" = "krmivo pro zvirata" (but this is IMHO a pleonasm,
              > > of course "feed" is not for humans!)

              It may be a pleonasm, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. It's very, very common, and it doesn't sound wrong to people. It's clearer than just "feed", even though all feed is for animals. (I won't get into the discourse-based reasons why it sounds fine and is used.)

              > The problem is, even though it is clear that feed is not aimed for people,
              > IMHO, the term "animal feed" just indicates (as you translated it) that it
              > is aimed for animals, however, we don't know if the feed is made of animals
              > or plants.

              "Animal feed" does not indicate that the feed is made of animals. It just means it's for animals. If animal feed is for cows, we know it surely doesn't contain animal content. If it's for tigers, we are sure it is partly made of meat.

              >This difference is the heart of the matter here, they
              > differentiate "krmivo rostlinneho puvodu" and "krmivo zivocisneho puvodu" so

              These would be better described as "vegetable-based feed" or "grain-based feed" or "plant-based feed" (depending on how specific you can get, the last being more general) and "animal-based feed".


              Jamie
            • karel6005
              ... the feeding of cattle (sometimes chickens). Would the fodder be inappropriate in this context too? Definitely. You don t feed chickens with fodder.
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Petr Veselý <veselypetr@p...>
                wrote:
                > However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to
                the feeding of cattle (sometimes chickens). Would the "fodder" be
                inappropriate in this context too?

                Definitely. You don't feed chickens with fodder. Fodder is grass,
                alfalfa, clover, hay, silage, haylage and the like. Dairy cows
                normally eat fodder plus concentrates. Concentrates are not fodder.
                Fodder plus concentrates = feed.

                BR

                Karel
              • andeds@aol.com
                In a message dated 2/3/04 12:41:11 PM GMT Standard Time, veselypetr@post.cz writes:
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  In a message dated 2/3/04 12:41:11 PM GMT Standard Time, veselypetr@...
                  writes:

                  << However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to the
                  feeding
                  of cattle (sometimes chickens). >>

                  "Feed" is the best bet.
                  I wouldn't use "fodder" for chickens. Fodder is grassy stuff for grazing
                  animals (in its literal sense, leaving aside all the metaphorical meanings).

                  "Chicken feed" is a standard collocation, and it appears as a separate entry
                  in the Oxford English Dictionary, which defines it as "food for poultry".
                  (Leaving aside, once again, the metaphorical meaning, "a paltry sum of money").

                  Dylan
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