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[Czechlist] Food versus foodstuff

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  • Petr Veselý
    Hi listmates, I am translating a veterinary research project dealing with bezpecnost a kvalita potravin . This phrase appears in almost every second sentence.
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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      Hi listmates,

      I am translating a veterinary research project dealing with "bezpecnost a
      kvalita potravin". This phrase appears in almost every second sentence. I'd
      welcome your comments on how to translate "potraviny"; is it enough to write
      "food" as the project does not mention any particular kind of foodstuff and
      the term "potraviny" is meant in the general sense of the word, or would the
      term "foodstuff" be more appropriate here as it is the standard translation
      for "potraviny".
      I'm inclined to used "food" rather than "foodstuff" here.

      Any advice warmly appreciated :)))

      Petr
    • karel6005
      ... rather than foodstuff here. I graduated from a vet school myself and have dealt with plenty of native and non-native English speakers who are experts in
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Petr Veselý <veselypetr@p...>
        wrote:
        > ... how to translate "potraviny" ... I'm inclined to used "food"
        rather than "foodstuff" here.

        I graduated from a vet school myself and have dealt with plenty of
        native and non-native English speakers who are experts in this
        field. Virtually all the time they refer to "food".

        My favourite Ditionary.com says:

        "foodstuff" = A substance that can be used or prepared for use as
        food.

        On the other hand, to make it more confusing, the ISAP database of
        binding terms in Brusselese has the following entries:

        Vedecky vybor pro potraviny = Scientific Committee for Food
        Poradni vybor pro potraviny = Advisory Committee on Foodstuffs
        Staly vybor pro potraviny = Standing Committee on Foodstuffs

        In conclusion, I believe that in principle

        "potravina" = "foodstuff"
        "jidlo" = "food"

        But - we Czechs would not say "Staly vybor pro jidlo", because this
        sounds clumsy. And for the English speakers "foodstuff" may be
        rather long and maybe there is a tendency to cut it short to "food".

        In the very end I conclude that I would go for "food". I am curious
        on responses from English native speakers.

        BR

        Karel
      • Petr Veselý
        ... Me too.The thing is, two months ago I translated a presentation for a dairy and it contained this sentence ...mlecne produkty patri k potravinam, jez
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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          > In the very end I conclude that I would go for "food". I am curious
          > on responses from English native speakers.
          >
          Me too.The thing is, two months ago I translated a presentation for a dairy
          and it contained this sentence "...mlecne produkty patri k potravinam, jez
          lidstvo vyrabi od nepameti..." I translated "potraviny" as food but the
          proofreader did not like it and replaced it with "foodstuffs", that's why I
          am hesitant now.

          One more question to Karel (or anybody competent)

          the project also mentions "krmivo zivocisneho / rostlinneho puvodu"; is it
          correct to say animal / vegetable fodder or would this compound mean that
          the fodder is aimed for animals / plants rather than that it is made of
          animals / plants. To avoid ambiguities, I've used fodder of animal /
          vegetable origin but it sounds like a Czenglish to me. If the former term is
          OK as for the meaning, I would gladly replace the latter one with it.

          Petr
        • karel6005
          ... animal / vegetable fodder Incorrect. Fodder = objemne krmivo (cf. jadrne krmivo or koncentraty or (krmne) smesi or the like). Feed is the
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Petr Veselý <veselypetr@p...>
            wrote:
            > "krmivo zivocisneho / rostlinneho puvodu"; is it correct to say
            animal / vegetable fodder

            Incorrect. "Fodder" = "objemne krmivo" (cf. "jadrne krmivo"
            or "koncentraty" or "(krmne) smesi" or the like).

            "Feed" is the correct word.

            "Animal feed" = "krmivo pro zvirata" (but this is IMHO a pleonasm,
            of course "feed" is not for humans!)


            > I've used fodder of animal / vegetable origin but it sounds like a
            Czenglish to me.

            "Feed of animal origin" is referred to on gov.uk and usda.gov pages.
            I would not be afraid of Czenglish in this case.

            "Feed of vegetable origin" appears on usda.gov pages but somehow I
            would like more "feed of plant origin". This is shown on gov.uk,
            fao.org and usda.gov pages as well.

            HTH

            (And arguments from NS welcome!)

            Karel
          • andeds@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/3/04 11:22:58 AM GMT Standard Time, karel6005@hotmail.com writes:
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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              In a message dated 2/3/04 11:22:58 AM GMT Standard Time,
              karel6005@... writes:

              << In the very end I conclude that I would go for "food". I am curious
              on responses from English native speakers.
              >>

              On an everyday level we talk about "pet food".

              More formally, and in more specialised contexts, it's "animal feed".

              Has anyone else met the term "feedstuffs" - not really a proper English word,
              but I did discover it in an EU Directive a few years ago. I used it in one
              translation only, because the document was referring to that EU Directive.

              "Fodder" sounds very agricultural and I associate it especially with cattle,
              i.e. you wouldn't, of course, give fodder to a cat or dog.

              Dylan
            • Petr Veselý
              Many thanks, Karel and Dylan, ... I started with feed but I replaced it by fodder in order not to confuse it with food. I thought that fodder and feed
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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                Many thanks, Karel and Dylan,

                > wrote:
                > > "krmivo zivocisneho / rostlinneho puvodu"; is it correct to say
                > animal / vegetable fodder
                >
                > Incorrect. "Fodder" = "objemne krmivo" (cf. "jadrne krmivo"
                > or "koncentraty" or "(krmne) smesi" or the like).
                >
                > "Feed" is the correct word.

                I started with "feed" but I replaced it by fodder in order not to confuse it
                with food. I thought that "fodder" and "feed" are more or less synonyms.
                However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to the feeding
                of cattle (sometimes chickens). It doesn't not refer to pet food.
                Would the "fodder" be inappropriate in this context too?
                >
                > "Animal feed" = "krmivo pro zvirata" (but this is IMHO a pleonasm,
                > of course "feed" is not for humans!)
                >
                The problem is, even though it is clear that feed is not aimed for people,
                IMHO, the term "animal feed" just indicates (as you translated it) that it
                is aimed for animals, however, we don't know if the feed is made of animals
                or plants. This difference is the heart of the matter here, they
                differentiate "krmivo rostlinneho puvodu" and "krmivo zivocisneho puvodu" so
                I will continue using "feed of animal origin" rather than "animal feed".


                Petr
              • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                ... They are synonyms, except that we use fodder in many metaphorical ways that we don t use feed . For example, soldiers in an army that is sent to fight
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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                  In a message dated 2/3/2004 7:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, veselypetr@... writes:

                  > I started with "feed" but I replaced it by fodder in order not to confuse it
                  > with food. I thought that "fodder" and "feed" are more or less synonyms.

                  They are synonyms, except that we use "fodder" in many metaphorical ways that we don't use "feed". For example, soldiers in an army that is sent to fight even though everyone knows they are sure to lose are called "cannon fodder".

                  > However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to the feeding
                  > of cattle (sometimes chickens). It doesn't not refer to pet food.

                  Then I think that in the US the most common word to use would be "feed".

                  > Would the "fodder" be inappropriate in this context too?

                  No, but it would be less common (at least in my country).

                  > > "Animal feed" = "krmivo pro zvirata" (but this is IMHO a pleonasm,
                  > > of course "feed" is not for humans!)

                  It may be a pleonasm, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. It's very, very common, and it doesn't sound wrong to people. It's clearer than just "feed", even though all feed is for animals. (I won't get into the discourse-based reasons why it sounds fine and is used.)

                  > The problem is, even though it is clear that feed is not aimed for people,
                  > IMHO, the term "animal feed" just indicates (as you translated it) that it
                  > is aimed for animals, however, we don't know if the feed is made of animals
                  > or plants.

                  "Animal feed" does not indicate that the feed is made of animals. It just means it's for animals. If animal feed is for cows, we know it surely doesn't contain animal content. If it's for tigers, we are sure it is partly made of meat.

                  >This difference is the heart of the matter here, they
                  > differentiate "krmivo rostlinneho puvodu" and "krmivo zivocisneho puvodu" so

                  These would be better described as "vegetable-based feed" or "grain-based feed" or "plant-based feed" (depending on how specific you can get, the last being more general) and "animal-based feed".


                  Jamie
                • karel6005
                  ... the feeding of cattle (sometimes chickens). Would the fodder be inappropriate in this context too? Definitely. You don t feed chickens with fodder.
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Petr Veselý <veselypetr@p...>
                    wrote:
                    > However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to
                    the feeding of cattle (sometimes chickens). Would the "fodder" be
                    inappropriate in this context too?

                    Definitely. You don't feed chickens with fodder. Fodder is grass,
                    alfalfa, clover, hay, silage, haylage and the like. Dairy cows
                    normally eat fodder plus concentrates. Concentrates are not fodder.
                    Fodder plus concentrates = feed.

                    BR

                    Karel
                  • andeds@aol.com
                    In a message dated 2/3/04 12:41:11 PM GMT Standard Time, veselypetr@post.cz writes:
                    Message 9 of 9 , Feb 3, 2004
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                      In a message dated 2/3/04 12:41:11 PM GMT Standard Time, veselypetr@...
                      writes:

                      << However, the term "krmivo" used in the document refers mostly to the
                      feeding
                      of cattle (sometimes chickens). >>

                      "Feed" is the best bet.
                      I wouldn't use "fodder" for chickens. Fodder is grassy stuff for grazing
                      animals (in its literal sense, leaving aside all the metaphorical meanings).

                      "Chicken feed" is a standard collocation, and it appears as a separate entry
                      in the Oxford English Dictionary, which defines it as "food for poultry".
                      (Leaving aside, once again, the metaphorical meaning, "a paltry sum of money").

                      Dylan
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