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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?

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  • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
    Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou sch , varianta sz vznikla az popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich zkusenosti
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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      Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou "sch", varianta "sz" vznikla az
      popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich
      zkusenosti vim, nicmene pochybuji, ze by anglictina vychazela z polstiny pro
      oznaceni jineho slovanskeho naroda, to je pro me absurdni koncept, pokud
      historicky existuje tataz forma i v cestine. Nicmene se rada poucim, pokud
      tomu bude jinak.
      L

      Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
      jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
      (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
      Petr A.
    • melvyn.geo
      ... Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

        > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


        Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to ambiguities."

        Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

        M.

        ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially by WR Morfill). ...
        users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm
      • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
        Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to zajima a v dane
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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          Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala
          oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to
          zajima a v dane diskusi jsem se vzdy vyjadrovala ve smyslu, ze "mi" se
          zda... Mohu se mylit, ale myslim, ze jazykovedci "Cesi" na to budou mit jiny
          nazor - kazdopadne, bylo by to nebylo poprve, co se vedci hadaji a v
          podstate o nic nejde.
          Zalezi take na tom, jak jiz tady zaznelo, kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny
          vubec proniklo - zda to bylo po reforme ceskeho pravopisu nebo po ni. Pokud
          pred ni, neni myslim co resit. Pokud az po ni, pak by se musely zkoumat
          polske vlivy, ovsem nevim, o jake vlivy by pak melo jit.
          L



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...>
          To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:27 PM
          Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

          > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


          Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R.
          Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske
          universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu
          tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have
          ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the
          pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to
          ambiguities."

          Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o
          slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou
          neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi
          etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital
          konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

          M.

          ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially
          by WR Morfill). ...
          users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm




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        • gabim@tiscali.cz
          czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z.... kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno pred janem husem i dlouho po
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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            czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z....
            kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno
            pred janem husem i dlouho po nem bylo bohemia...
            bohemia prislo do anglie pro zmenu pres cikany

            very busy gabina

            PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)
            At least my friend from zagreb says czechland all the time :-)

            a porad mi vadi cz min nez cesko...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová" <iona@...>
            To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:47 AM
            Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


            > Nezkoumala jsem to etymologicky, ale kazdopadne si myslim, ze byla urcite
            > pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v
            > anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. Pouziti "Ch" misto "Cz" by byl prilis
            > silny etymologicky posun.
            > L
            >
            > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia": nevite, kde se to "Cz" v
            > > anglictine pro "Czech", "Czechoslovak(ian)" vzalo, kdyz v samotne
            cestine
            > > (na rozdil od polstiny) se "cz" vubec nepouziva? To se do anglictiny
            > dostalo
            > > z doby jeste pred Janem Husem?
            > > Petr



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          • Michael L. Grant
            ... The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands (like The
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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              On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 09:26 AM, <gabim@...> wrote:

              > PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)

              The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain
              archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands
              (like The Netherlands) could eventually catch on--I think the Prague
              Tribune used to use that. But it seems artificial and reminds me of
              Chiclets (a brand of chewing gum). As for Czechland in the singular and
              without the article, as long as the second syllable is unstressed with
              a "schwa" vowel (like other European countries ending in -land), I
              guess it's not too bad. But I think there'd be a tendency to pronounce
              it with a secondary stress on the '-land' (like Swaziland), which makes
              it sound like an amusement park--I'd expect it to be full of people
              running around in folk costumes.

              Michael
            • raesim
              My hunch is that the cz spelling was popularized in the run-up to Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton- Watson) well-versed
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                My hunch is that the 'cz' spelling was popularized in the run-up to
                Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton-
                Watson) well-versed in Czech history who read Czech in both its
                diagraphical and its diacritical forms.

                Simon
              • gabim@tiscali.cz
                Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje? Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale .. Ma znama
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                  Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje?
                  Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale ..
                  Ma znama dostala nabidku, jestli by nenapsala odbornou knizku (cca 150 stran), nenafotila, nenascanovala, nenakreslila nacrty pro jedno nakladatestvi. Dostane za to 8% ze zisku (ne z ceny knihy) nakladatelstvi z prodanych kopii, autorska prava bude mit nakladatelstvi. Skutecne dostavaji autori tak malo, kdyz kazdy prodejce na krame dostane takovych 30% z ceny knihy?(kopie a 290,-, naklad 3000).
                  Gabina


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                • mike trittipo
                  ... Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven t checked the OED yet (the Concise doesn t give a date, and merely repeats the Polish spelling mention). 1841 is
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                    Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová wrote:

                    >. . . kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny vubec proniklo
                    >

                    Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven't checked the OED yet (the Concise
                    doesn't give a date, and merely repeats the "Polish spelling"
                    mention). 1841 is not inconsistent with the 19th century Czech
                    newspapers published in this country: most of them say Bohemian (and
                    official documents like immigration papers refer to the official
                    political entities, like Austria).
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