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Re: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?

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  • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
    ... Czechistan sounds too Arabic to me :-))))
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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      > > "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)
      >
      > See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better!
      > Michael
      > (anyone for 'Czechistan'?)

      Czechistan sounds too Arabic to me :-))))
    • melvyn.geo
      To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that I have consulted blame it all on the Poles: Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish,
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 2, 2003
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        To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that
        I have consulted blame it all on the Poles:

        Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish, from Czech Cech]
        Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins


        Czech adj.
        [Polish, from Czech]
        Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

        BTW here's a good definition that I found in Webster's:

        Czech
        2. The language of the Czechs (often called Bohemian), the harshest
        and richest of the Slavic languages.
        Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary,

        M.
      • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
        A few days ago I wrote: byla urcite pouzita predhusovska sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. The concept of the
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2003
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          A few days ago I wrote:
          byla urcite pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by
          se v
          anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku.

          The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me. Rememer Jan
          Hus and his "simplifying" the letter clusters. "Cz" is something innate to
          the Czech language itself (Polish only has the same origin), why should "Cz"
          in English be considered Polish? (Tell me about it with my surname :-)
          L



          To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that
          I have consulted blame it all on the Poles:

          Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish, from Czech Cech]
          Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins


          Czech adj.
          [Polish, from Czech]
          Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

          BTW here's a good definition that I found in Webster's:

          Czech
          2. The language of the Czechs (often called Bohemian), the harshest
          and richest of the Slavic languages.
          Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary,

          M.




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        • spektrum2002
          Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo Czech vystopovat, jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske. (P.S. A ono to Mandryszova z
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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            Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
            jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
            (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
            Petr A.
            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...>
            wrote:
            > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.
            Rememer Jan
            > Hus and his "simplifying" the letter clusters. "Cz" is something
            innate to
            > the Czech language itself (Polish only has the same origin), why
            should "Cz"
            > in English be considered Polish? (Tell me about it with my
            surname :-)
            > L
          • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
            Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou sch , varianta sz vznikla az popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich zkusenosti
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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              Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou "sch", varianta "sz" vznikla az
              popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich
              zkusenosti vim, nicmene pochybuji, ze by anglictina vychazela z polstiny pro
              oznaceni jineho slovanskeho naroda, to je pro me absurdni koncept, pokud
              historicky existuje tataz forma i v cestine. Nicmene se rada poucim, pokud
              tomu bude jinak.
              L

              Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
              jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
              (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
              Petr A.
            • melvyn.geo
              ... Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

                > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


                Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to ambiguities."

                Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

                M.

                ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially by WR Morfill). ...
                users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm
              • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to zajima a v dane
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                  Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala
                  oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to
                  zajima a v dane diskusi jsem se vzdy vyjadrovala ve smyslu, ze "mi" se
                  zda... Mohu se mylit, ale myslim, ze jazykovedci "Cesi" na to budou mit jiny
                  nazor - kazdopadne, bylo by to nebylo poprve, co se vedci hadaji a v
                  podstate o nic nejde.
                  Zalezi take na tom, jak jiz tady zaznelo, kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny
                  vubec proniklo - zda to bylo po reforme ceskeho pravopisu nebo po ni. Pokud
                  pred ni, neni myslim co resit. Pokud az po ni, pak by se musely zkoumat
                  polske vlivy, ovsem nevim, o jake vlivy by pak melo jit.
                  L



                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...>
                  To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:27 PM
                  Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

                  > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


                  Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R.
                  Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske
                  universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu
                  tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have
                  ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the
                  pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to
                  ambiguities."

                  Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o
                  slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou
                  neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi
                  etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital
                  konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

                  M.

                  ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially
                  by WR Morfill). ...
                  users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm




                  Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • gabim@tiscali.cz
                  czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z.... kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno pred janem husem i dlouho po
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                    czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z....
                    kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno
                    pred janem husem i dlouho po nem bylo bohemia...
                    bohemia prislo do anglie pro zmenu pres cikany

                    very busy gabina

                    PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)
                    At least my friend from zagreb says czechland all the time :-)

                    a porad mi vadi cz min nez cesko...

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová" <iona@...>
                    To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:47 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


                    > Nezkoumala jsem to etymologicky, ale kazdopadne si myslim, ze byla urcite
                    > pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v
                    > anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. Pouziti "Ch" misto "Cz" by byl prilis
                    > silny etymologicky posun.
                    > L
                    >
                    > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia": nevite, kde se to "Cz" v
                    > > anglictine pro "Czech", "Czechoslovak(ian)" vzalo, kdyz v samotne
                    cestine
                    > > (na rozdil od polstiny) se "cz" vubec nepouziva? To se do anglictiny
                    > dostalo
                    > > z doby jeste pred Janem Husem?
                    > > Petr



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                  • Michael L. Grant
                    ... The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands (like The
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                      On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 09:26 AM, <gabim@...> wrote:

                      > PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)

                      The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain
                      archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands
                      (like The Netherlands) could eventually catch on--I think the Prague
                      Tribune used to use that. But it seems artificial and reminds me of
                      Chiclets (a brand of chewing gum). As for Czechland in the singular and
                      without the article, as long as the second syllable is unstressed with
                      a "schwa" vowel (like other European countries ending in -land), I
                      guess it's not too bad. But I think there'd be a tendency to pronounce
                      it with a secondary stress on the '-land' (like Swaziland), which makes
                      it sound like an amusement park--I'd expect it to be full of people
                      running around in folk costumes.

                      Michael
                    • raesim
                      My hunch is that the cz spelling was popularized in the run-up to Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton- Watson) well-versed
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                        My hunch is that the 'cz' spelling was popularized in the run-up to
                        Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton-
                        Watson) well-versed in Czech history who read Czech in both its
                        diagraphical and its diacritical forms.

                        Simon
                      • gabim@tiscali.cz
                        Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje? Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale .. Ma znama
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                          Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje?
                          Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale ..
                          Ma znama dostala nabidku, jestli by nenapsala odbornou knizku (cca 150 stran), nenafotila, nenascanovala, nenakreslila nacrty pro jedno nakladatestvi. Dostane za to 8% ze zisku (ne z ceny knihy) nakladatelstvi z prodanych kopii, autorska prava bude mit nakladatelstvi. Skutecne dostavaji autori tak malo, kdyz kazdy prodejce na krame dostane takovych 30% z ceny knihy?(kopie a 290,-, naklad 3000).
                          Gabina


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                        • mike trittipo
                          ... Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven t checked the OED yet (the Concise doesn t give a date, and merely repeats the Polish spelling mention). 1841 is
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                            Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová wrote:

                            >. . . kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny vubec proniklo
                            >

                            Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven't checked the OED yet (the Concise
                            doesn't give a date, and merely repeats the "Polish spelling"
                            mention). 1841 is not inconsistent with the 19th century Czech
                            newspapers published in this country: most of them say Bohemian (and
                            official documents like immigration papers refer to the official
                            political entities, like Austria).
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