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Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?

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  • spektrum2002
    See, even _one_ native Cheskian thinks it sounds better! Petr
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
      See, even _one_ native Cheskian thinks it sounds better!
      Petr
      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Michael L. Grant" <trans@b...>
      wrote:
      > On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 02:49 AM, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
      > wrote:
      >
      > > "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)
      >
      > See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better!
      > Michael
      > (anyone for 'Czechistan'?)
    • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
      ... Czechistan sounds too Arabic to me :-))))
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
        > > "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)
        >
        > See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better!
        > Michael
        > (anyone for 'Czechistan'?)

        Czechistan sounds too Arabic to me :-))))
      • melvyn.geo
        To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that I have consulted blame it all on the Poles: Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish,
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2003
          To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that
          I have consulted blame it all on the Poles:

          Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish, from Czech Cech]
          Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins


          Czech adj.
          [Polish, from Czech]
          Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

          BTW here's a good definition that I found in Webster's:

          Czech
          2. The language of the Czechs (often called Bohemian), the harshest
          and richest of the Slavic languages.
          Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary,

          M.
        • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
          A few days ago I wrote: byla urcite pouzita predhusovska sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. The concept of the
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2003
            A few days ago I wrote:
            byla urcite pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by
            se v
            anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku.

            The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me. Rememer Jan
            Hus and his "simplifying" the letter clusters. "Cz" is something innate to
            the Czech language itself (Polish only has the same origin), why should "Cz"
            in English be considered Polish? (Tell me about it with my surname :-)
            L



            To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that
            I have consulted blame it all on the Poles:

            Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish, from Czech Cech]
            Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins


            Czech adj.
            [Polish, from Czech]
            Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

            BTW here's a good definition that I found in Webster's:

            Czech
            2. The language of the Czechs (often called Bohemian), the harshest
            and richest of the Slavic languages.
            Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary,

            M.




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          • spektrum2002
            Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo Czech vystopovat, jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske. (P.S. A ono to Mandryszova z
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
              Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
              jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
              (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
              Petr A.
              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...>
              wrote:
              > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.
              Rememer Jan
              > Hus and his "simplifying" the letter clusters. "Cz" is something
              innate to
              > the Czech language itself (Polish only has the same origin), why
              should "Cz"
              > in English be considered Polish? (Tell me about it with my
              surname :-)
              > L
            • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
              Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou sch , varianta sz vznikla az popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich zkusenosti
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou "sch", varianta "sz" vznikla az
                popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich
                zkusenosti vim, nicmene pochybuji, ze by anglictina vychazela z polstiny pro
                oznaceni jineho slovanskeho naroda, to je pro me absurdni koncept, pokud
                historicky existuje tataz forma i v cestine. Nicmene se rada poucim, pokud
                tomu bude jinak.
                L

                Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
                jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
                (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
                Petr A.
              • melvyn.geo
                ... Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

                  > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


                  Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to ambiguities."

                  Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

                  M.

                  ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially by WR Morfill). ...
                  users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm
                • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                  Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to zajima a v dane
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                    Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala
                    oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to
                    zajima a v dane diskusi jsem se vzdy vyjadrovala ve smyslu, ze "mi" se
                    zda... Mohu se mylit, ale myslim, ze jazykovedci "Cesi" na to budou mit jiny
                    nazor - kazdopadne, bylo by to nebylo poprve, co se vedci hadaji a v
                    podstate o nic nejde.
                    Zalezi take na tom, jak jiz tady zaznelo, kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny
                    vubec proniklo - zda to bylo po reforme ceskeho pravopisu nebo po ni. Pokud
                    pred ni, neni myslim co resit. Pokud az po ni, pak by se musely zkoumat
                    polske vlivy, ovsem nevim, o jake vlivy by pak melo jit.
                    L



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...>
                    To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:27 PM
                    Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


                    --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

                    > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


                    Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R.
                    Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske
                    universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu
                    tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have
                    ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the
                    pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to
                    ambiguities."

                    Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o
                    slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou
                    neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi
                    etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital
                    konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

                    M.

                    ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially
                    by WR Morfill). ...
                    users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm




                    Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • gabim@tiscali.cz
                    czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z.... kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno pred janem husem i dlouho po
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                      czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z....
                      kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno
                      pred janem husem i dlouho po nem bylo bohemia...
                      bohemia prislo do anglie pro zmenu pres cikany

                      very busy gabina

                      PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)
                      At least my friend from zagreb says czechland all the time :-)

                      a porad mi vadi cz min nez cesko...

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová" <iona@...>
                      To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:47 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


                      > Nezkoumala jsem to etymologicky, ale kazdopadne si myslim, ze byla urcite
                      > pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v
                      > anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. Pouziti "Ch" misto "Cz" by byl prilis
                      > silny etymologicky posun.
                      > L
                      >
                      > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia": nevite, kde se to "Cz" v
                      > > anglictine pro "Czech", "Czechoslovak(ian)" vzalo, kdyz v samotne
                      cestine
                      > > (na rozdil od polstiny) se "cz" vubec nepouziva? To se do anglictiny
                      > dostalo
                      > > z doby jeste pred Janem Husem?
                      > > Petr



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                    • Michael L. Grant
                      ... The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands (like The
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                        On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 09:26 AM, <gabim@...> wrote:

                        > PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)

                        The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain
                        archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands
                        (like The Netherlands) could eventually catch on--I think the Prague
                        Tribune used to use that. But it seems artificial and reminds me of
                        Chiclets (a brand of chewing gum). As for Czechland in the singular and
                        without the article, as long as the second syllable is unstressed with
                        a "schwa" vowel (like other European countries ending in -land), I
                        guess it's not too bad. But I think there'd be a tendency to pronounce
                        it with a secondary stress on the '-land' (like Swaziland), which makes
                        it sound like an amusement park--I'd expect it to be full of people
                        running around in folk costumes.

                        Michael
                      • raesim
                        My hunch is that the cz spelling was popularized in the run-up to Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton- Watson) well-versed
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                          My hunch is that the 'cz' spelling was popularized in the run-up to
                          Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton-
                          Watson) well-versed in Czech history who read Czech in both its
                          diagraphical and its diacritical forms.

                          Simon
                        • gabim@tiscali.cz
                          Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje? Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale .. Ma znama
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                            Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje?
                            Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale ..
                            Ma znama dostala nabidku, jestli by nenapsala odbornou knizku (cca 150 stran), nenafotila, nenascanovala, nenakreslila nacrty pro jedno nakladatestvi. Dostane za to 8% ze zisku (ne z ceny knihy) nakladatelstvi z prodanych kopii, autorska prava bude mit nakladatelstvi. Skutecne dostavaji autori tak malo, kdyz kazdy prodejce na krame dostane takovych 30% z ceny knihy?(kopie a 290,-, naklad 3000).
                            Gabina


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                            Odchozí zpráva neobsahuje viry.
                            Zkontrolováno antivirovým systémem AVG (http://www.grisoft.cz).
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mike trittipo
                            ... Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven t checked the OED yet (the Concise doesn t give a date, and merely repeats the Polish spelling mention). 1841 is
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
                              Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová wrote:

                              >. . . kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny vubec proniklo
                              >

                              Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven't checked the OED yet (the Concise
                              doesn't give a date, and merely repeats the "Polish spelling"
                              mention). 1841 is not inconsistent with the 19th century Czech
                              newspapers published in this country: most of them say Bohemian (and
                              official documents like immigration papers refer to the official
                              political entities, like Austria).
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