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Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?

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  • raesim
    ... I don t get you, Matej. Are you saying cz is an obvious candidate to represent the ch sound in English? If so, can you think of a word other than
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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      > spise foneticky, ne?

      I don't get you, Matej. Are you saying 'cz' is an obvious candidate
      to represent the 'ch' sound in English? If so, can you think of a
      word other than 'Czech' and its derivatives that uses 'cz'
      for 'ch'? Not 'czar', where the 'cz' is pronounced /ts/.

      > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia"...

      Czeskia, Petr, Czeskia.

      Simon

      PS Actually I prefer the 'ch'.
    • raesim
      ... Or /z/. Simon PS Cheskia.
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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        > Not 'czar', where the 'cz' is pronounced /ts/.

        Or /z/.

        Simon

        PS Cheskia.
      • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
        Nezkoumala jsem to etymologicky, ale kazdopadne si myslim, ze byla urcite pouzita predhusovska sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v anglictine
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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          Nezkoumala jsem to etymologicky, ale kazdopadne si myslim, ze byla urcite
          pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v
          anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. Pouziti "Ch" misto "Cz" by byl prilis
          silny etymologicky posun.
          L

          > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia": nevite, kde se to "Cz" v
          > anglictine pro "Czech", "Czechoslovak(ian)" vzalo, kdyz v samotne cestine
          > (na rozdil od polstiny) se "cz" vubec nepouziva? To se do anglictiny
          dostalo
          > z doby jeste pred Janem Husem?
          > Petr
        • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
          Czeskia sound much better to my ears that Czechia :-) L
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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            "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)
            L



            > > spise foneticky, ne?
            >
            > I don't get you, Matej. Are you saying 'cz' is an obvious candidate
            > to represent the 'ch' sound in English? If so, can you think of a
            > word other than 'Czech' and its derivatives that uses 'cz'
            > for 'ch'? Not 'czar', where the 'cz' is pronounced /ts/.
            >
            > > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia"...
            >
            > Czeskia, Petr, Czeskia.
            >
            > Simon
            >
            > PS Actually I prefer the 'ch'.
            >
            >
            >
            > Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Matej Klimes
            OK, I get it now - didn t at 4 AM :) M ... From: raesim To: Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:42 AM
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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              OK, I get it now - didn't at 4 AM :)

              M


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "raesim" <rachelandsimon@...>
              To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:42 AM
              Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


              > > spise foneticky, ne?
              >
              > I don't get you, Matej. Are you saying 'cz' is an obvious candidate
              > to represent the 'ch' sound in English? If so, can you think of a
              > word other than 'Czech' and its derivatives that uses 'cz'
              > for 'ch'? Not 'czar', where the 'cz' is pronounced /ts/.
              >
              > > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia"...
              >
              > Czeskia, Petr, Czeskia.
              >
              > Simon
              >
              > PS Actually I prefer the 'ch'.
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
            • Michael L. Grant
              On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 02:49 AM, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová ... See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better! Michael (anyone for Czechistan ?)
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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                On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 02:49 AM, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                wrote:

                > "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)

                See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better!
                Michael
                (anyone for 'Czechistan'?)
              • spektrum2002
                See, even _one_ native Cheskian thinks it sounds better! Petr
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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                  See, even _one_ native Cheskian thinks it sounds better!
                  Petr
                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Michael L. Grant" <trans@b...>
                  wrote:
                  > On Wednesday, October 1, 2003, at 02:49 AM, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)
                  >
                  > See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better!
                  > Michael
                  > (anyone for 'Czechistan'?)
                • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                  ... Czechistan sounds too Arabic to me :-))))
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
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                    > > "Czeskia" sound much better to my ears that "Czechia" :-)
                    >
                    > See, even native Cheskians think it sounds better!
                    > Michael
                    > (anyone for 'Czechistan'?)

                    Czechistan sounds too Arabic to me :-))))
                  • melvyn.geo
                    To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that I have consulted blame it all on the Poles: Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish,
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 2, 2003
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                      To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that
                      I have consulted blame it all on the Poles:

                      Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish, from Czech Cech]
                      Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins


                      Czech adj.
                      [Polish, from Czech]
                      Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

                      BTW here's a good definition that I found in Webster's:

                      Czech
                      2. The language of the Czechs (often called Bohemian), the harshest
                      and richest of the Slavic languages.
                      Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary,

                      M.
                    • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                      A few days ago I wrote: byla urcite pouzita predhusovska sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. The concept of the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 2, 2003
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                        A few days ago I wrote:
                        byla urcite pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by
                        se v
                        anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku.

                        The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me. Rememer Jan
                        Hus and his "simplifying" the letter clusters. "Cz" is something innate to
                        the Czech language itself (Polish only has the same origin), why should "Cz"
                        in English be considered Polish? (Tell me about it with my surname :-)
                        L



                        To answer the original question, most etymological dictionaries that
                        I have consulted blame it all on the Poles:

                        Czech [ETYMOLOGY: 19th Century: from Polish, from Czech Cech]
                        Source: The Collins English Dictionary © 2000 HarperCollins


                        Czech adj.
                        [Polish, from Czech]
                        Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language,

                        BTW here's a good definition that I found in Webster's:

                        Czech
                        2. The language of the Czechs (often called Bohemian), the harshest
                        and richest of the Slavic languages.
                        Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary,

                        M.




                        Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • spektrum2002
                        Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo Czech vystopovat, jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske. (P.S. A ono to Mandryszova z
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                          Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
                          jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
                          (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
                          Petr A.
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...>
                          wrote:
                          > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.
                          Rememer Jan
                          > Hus and his "simplifying" the letter clusters. "Cz" is something
                          innate to
                          > the Czech language itself (Polish only has the same origin), why
                          should "Cz"
                          > in English be considered Polish? (Tell me about it with my
                          surname :-)
                          > L
                        • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                          Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou sch , varianta sz vznikla az popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich zkusenosti
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                            Me prijmeni ma nemecky puvod s variantou "sch", varianta "sz" vznikla az
                            popolstenim. Ta poznamka byla myslena tak, ze o sprezkach neco z osobnich
                            zkusenosti vim, nicmene pochybuji, ze by anglictina vychazela z polstiny pro
                            oznaceni jineho slovanskeho naroda, to je pro me absurdni koncept, pokud
                            historicky existuje tataz forma i v cestine. Nicmene se rada poucim, pokud
                            tomu bude jinak.
                            L

                            Otazka je, kam az (casove) se da anglicke slovo "Czech" vystopovat,
                            jestli do doby predhusovske nebo az vyznamne pohusovske.
                            (P.S. A ono to "Mandryszova" z polstiny nepochazi? To mne prekvapuje!)
                            Petr A.
                          • melvyn.geo
                            ... Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

                              > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


                              Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R. Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to ambiguities."

                              Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

                              M.

                              ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially by WR Morfill). ...
                              users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm
                            • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
                              Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to zajima a v dane
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                Konkretni dukazy se v jazyce asi tezko podavaji, nicmene jsem pozadala
                                oficialni mista o oficialni vyjadreni, ktere poskytnu. Kazdopadne me to
                                zajima a v dane diskusi jsem se vzdy vyjadrovala ve smyslu, ze "mi" se
                                zda... Mohu se mylit, ale myslim, ze jazykovedci "Cesi" na to budou mit jiny
                                nazor - kazdopadne, bylo by to nebylo poprve, co se vedci hadaji a v
                                podstate o nic nejde.
                                Zalezi take na tom, jak jiz tady zaznelo, kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny
                                vubec proniklo - zda to bylo po reforme ceskeho pravopisu nebo po ni. Pokud
                                pred ni, neni myslim co resit. Pokud az po ni, pak by se musely zkoumat
                                polske vlivy, ovsem nevim, o jake vlivy by pak melo jit.
                                L



                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "melvyn.geo" <zehrovak@...>
                                To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, October 03, 2003 1:27 PM
                                Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


                                --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová <iona@v...> wrote:=

                                > The concept of the Polish origin seems completely wrong to me.


                                Mam zajimave dilo z r. 1899 od prukopnika bohemistiky v Britanii, W. R.
                                Morfill, profesora rustiny a jinych slovanskych jazyku na Oxfordske
                                universite a clena korespondenta kralovske ceske spolecnosti nauky. V uvodu
                                tohoto "Grammar of the Bohemian or C^ech [sic] Language" konstatuje: "I have
                                ventured elsewhere to use the form Chekh, so as to preserve the
                                pronunciation. The Polish form ordinarily used in England (Czech) leads to
                                ambiguities."

                                Byl bych prekvapen, kdyby si takovy odbornik se sirokym prehledem o
                                slovanskych jazycich i s vyhodou casove blizkosti dovolil nejakou
                                neopatrnost nebo nepresnost pri pouziti slova "Polish". Svedectvi
                                etymologickych slovniku asi take stoji za neco. Ale samozrejme bych uvital
                                konkretni dukazy, ze tomu tak neni. :-)

                                M.

                                ... foundations had been laid [...] for Czech studies in Britain (especially
                                by WR Morfill). ...
                                users.ox.ac.uk/~bcsforum/rjwe.htm




                                Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • gabim@tiscali.cz
                                czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z.... kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno pred janem husem i dlouho po
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                  czech prislo do anglictiny pres polstinu, proto to z....
                                  kdysi jsem o tom cetla a mam pocit, ze to bylo pomerne dejinne nedavno
                                  pred janem husem i dlouho po nem bylo bohemia...
                                  bohemia prislo do anglie pro zmenu pres cikany

                                  very busy gabina

                                  PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)
                                  At least my friend from zagreb says czechland all the time :-)

                                  a porad mi vadi cz min nez cesko...

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová" <iona@...>
                                  To: <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 9:47 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Kde se to "Cz" vzalo?


                                  > Nezkoumala jsem to etymologicky, ale kazdopadne si myslim, ze byla urcite
                                  > pouzita "predhusovska" sprezka z duvodu absence cehokoliv, co by se v
                                  > anglictine podobalo nasemu hacku. Pouziti "Ch" misto "Cz" by byl prilis
                                  > silny etymologicky posun.
                                  > L
                                  >
                                  > > Kdyz se tak bavime o "Czechia", "Czekia": nevite, kde se to "Cz" v
                                  > > anglictine pro "Czech", "Czechoslovak(ian)" vzalo, kdyz v samotne
                                  cestine
                                  > > (na rozdil od polstiny) se "cz" vubec nepouziva? To se do anglictiny
                                  > dostalo
                                  > > z doby jeste pred Janem Husem?
                                  > > Petr



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                                • Michael L. Grant
                                  ... The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands (like The
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                    On Friday, October 3, 2003, at 09:26 AM, <gabim@...> wrote:

                                    > PS a co treba (the) czechland(s)? :-)

                                    The Czech Lands (two/three words) sounds OK, though it has a certain
                                    archaic odor to it. I suppose running it together as The Czechlands
                                    (like The Netherlands) could eventually catch on--I think the Prague
                                    Tribune used to use that. But it seems artificial and reminds me of
                                    Chiclets (a brand of chewing gum). As for Czechland in the singular and
                                    without the article, as long as the second syllable is unstressed with
                                    a "schwa" vowel (like other European countries ending in -land), I
                                    guess it's not too bad. But I think there'd be a tendency to pronounce
                                    it with a secondary stress on the '-land' (like Swaziland), which makes
                                    it sound like an amusement park--I'd expect it to be full of people
                                    running around in folk costumes.

                                    Michael
                                  • raesim
                                    My hunch is that the cz spelling was popularized in the run-up to Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton- Watson) well-versed
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                      My hunch is that the 'cz' spelling was popularized in the run-up to
                                      Czechoslovak independence by Anglophone scholars (such as R.W. Seton-
                                      Watson) well-versed in Czech history who read Czech in both its
                                      diagraphical and its diacritical forms.

                                      Simon
                                    • gabim@tiscali.cz
                                      Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje? Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale .. Ma znama
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                        Nevyzna se nekdo z vas nahodou ve vydavani knizek? Nakladatelske smlouvy a jak to funguje?
                                        Mam celkem prakticky dotaz nesouvisejici s preklady ale ..
                                        Ma znama dostala nabidku, jestli by nenapsala odbornou knizku (cca 150 stran), nenafotila, nenascanovala, nenakreslila nacrty pro jedno nakladatestvi. Dostane za to 8% ze zisku (ne z ceny knihy) nakladatelstvi z prodanych kopii, autorska prava bude mit nakladatelstvi. Skutecne dostavaji autori tak malo, kdyz kazdy prodejce na krame dostane takovych 30% z ceny knihy?(kopie a 290,-, naklad 3000).
                                        Gabina


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                                      • mike trittipo
                                        ... Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven t checked the OED yet (the Concise doesn t give a date, and merely repeats the Polish spelling mention). 1841 is
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 3, 2003
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                                          Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová wrote:

                                          >. . . kdy slovo "Czech" do anglictiny vubec proniklo
                                          >

                                          Merriam-Webster says 1841. I haven't checked the OED yet (the Concise
                                          doesn't give a date, and merely repeats the "Polish spelling"
                                          mention). 1841 is not inconsistent with the 19th century Czech
                                          newspapers published in this country: most of them say Bohemian (and
                                          official documents like immigration papers refer to the official
                                          political entities, like Austria).
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