Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Czechlist] Re: Czechlist

Expand Messages
  • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
    ... I got the Prague part after a couple of years, but I never knew about the gnosis part until you mentioned it. I am still mourning the loss of that paper.
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      In a message dated 9/30/03 12:10:11 PM, zehrovak@... writes:

      > Remember the old Prognosis newspaper? Took me a few years to realize
      > (one evening as I was sitting in the bath) that it's a pun in American
      > English (Prague gnosis, right?).
      >
      I got the Prague part after a couple of years, but I never knew about the
      gnosis part until you mentioned it.

      I am still mourning the loss of that paper. It always seemed far more
      accurate than the Prague Post, and therefore completely unbelievable to people who
      did not live in Eastern Europe.

      Jamie


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michal Ginter
      ... S dlouhym vedenim.
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        :-)


        >
        > Jamie
        > s dlouhym dratem
        >

        S dlouhym vedenim.
      • Mgr. Lenka Mandryszová
        ... s dlouhym dratem can evoke various associations :-)
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          > > Jamie
          > > s dlouhym dratem
          > >
          >
          > S dlouhym vedenim.


          "s dlouhym dratem" can evoke various associations :-)
        • Michael L. Grant
          ... For about two magical years, Prague was just about the coolest place on the planet, at least for a young English speaker with nothing to tie him down. The
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 12:19 PM, JPKIRCHNER@... wrote:

            > I am still mourning the loss of that paper. It always seemed far more
            > accurate than the Prague Post, and therefore completely unbelievable
            > to people who
            > did not live in Eastern Europe.

            For about two magical years, Prague was just about the coolest place on
            the planet, at least for a young English speaker with nothing to tie
            him down. The folding of Prognosis was one of the signs of the end of
            the wonder years. (Of course it was right about that time that I
            finally got around to actually moving there. Story of my life.)

            BTW has anyone else, especially present and former expats, read Arthur
            Phillips' novel Prague?

            Michael
            waxing nostalgic
          • Darian and Veronika
            For about two magical years, Prague was just about the coolest place on the planet, at least for a young English speaker with nothing to tie him down. The
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              For about two magical years, Prague was just about the coolest place on
              the planet, at least for a young English speaker with nothing to tie
              him down. The folding of Prognosis was one of the signs of the end of
              the wonder years. (Of course it was right about that time that I
              finally got around to actually moving there. Story of my life.)

              BTW has anyone else, especially present and former expats, read Arthur
              Phillips' novel Prague?

              Michael
              waxing nostalgic

              Sorry if I don't share your feelings. The early 90s in Prague was mostly loser gringo refugees from American colleges, living off daddy's money, playing (badly) at being the next Hemingway/F. Scott Fitzgerald generation (and having the nerve to actually claim the moniker anyway), strumming guitars on Karluv most and panhandling for cash, pretending to have some magical substance called "know-how" to sell, ripping people off posing as English teachers, laying the foundations for their own little insular world of Bohemia Bagels and other establishments where, not only did people not understand Czech, but they were also full of disdain for all things that were Czech (except the beer) and therefore "uncool." Just reading the jacket cover of Phillips' novel was enough to make me almost puke as I remembered those awful days...Prague is, always was, and always will be a magical place, but it never needed a horde of freeloaders to make it that way.

              Darian

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
              ... I am still preaching to American English education majors about the evils of backpackers , as those teachers are called in the ESL field. True quotations:
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 9/30/03 9:10:17 PM, bezdomovci@... writes:

                > ripping people off posing as English teachers,
                >
                I am still preaching to American English education majors about the evils of
                "backpackers", as those teachers are called in the ESL field.

                True quotations:
                Frustrated Czech student: "I am taking lesson from you already two
                years! Exactly how you make a question in English?!"
                Canadian "English teacher": "You have to *feel* it!"

                I explain to my students that they are not only cheating students out of
                money if they play with English teaching, but they could sabotage a banker out of
                a promotion or someone else out of whole job.

                Those fakers caused trouble for qualified people, as around 1994 I began
                running into fully educated and qualified ESL teachers from North America and the
                UK who had been banished a priori to "konversacni hodiny", while a Czech
                instructor taught the students bad English grammar. So strong became the
                assumption that native English speakers could not be trusted to teach their own
                language.

                > laying the foundations for their own little insular world of Bohemia Bagels
                > and other establishments where, not only did people not understand Czech,
                > but they were also full of disdain for all things that were Czech (except the
                > beer) and therefore "uncool." 
                >
                I got this type of person in my department at the ad agency I last worked at
                near Detroit. She had supposedly worked for McCann-Erikson Prague, but she
                knew so little about anything in the CzR that I began to think she might have
                been lying. "Where is that town you lived in?" "It was in the western part
                of the country, about 45 minutes from Germany." "Is it in Slovakia?" She
                didn't even know where the Forum Hotel was. The piece de resistance came near
                the end of Lent when I said to her, "Hey! Easter's coming! I'm going to
                miss that stuffed rice!" Stuffed rice? I explained that she must have
                missed the Czech Easter tradition in which the women and girls spent many, many
                hours over several weeks of Lent stuffing thousands of individual kernels of rice
                with a meat and spice solution, so that the men could gobble it all up in a
                couple of minutes on Easter day. She welled up with feminist outrage and
                bellowed, "THAT'S INSANE!" This was when I was fully convinced she was lying
                about having lived there.

                > Just reading the jacket cover of Phillips' novel was enough to make me
                > almost puke as I remembered those awful days...Prague is, always was, and always
                > will be a magical place, but it never needed a horde of freeloaders to make
                > it that way.
                >
                A friend of mine who detests those "freeloaders" as much as you do has urged
                me to read the book. She claims it's a masterful depiction of just that kind
                of moron. It doesn't even take place in Prague, but in Budapest among a
                group of that sort of goofs, all feeling they are missing the scene and should be
                in Prague.

                Jamie



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Matej Klimes
                pretending to have some magical substance called know-how to sell, Actually, it s gotten much worse now that they don t get away with this anymore... apart
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  pretending to have some magical substance called "know-how" to sell,


                  Actually, it's gotten much worse now that they don't get away with this
                  anymore... apart from normal expats who have jobs, start businesses, etc.,
                  (yes, some of them still haven't realized they live in a country called the
                  Czech Republic, but why would they, living between Jama, Joe's Bar, Bohemia
                  Bagels and other genuine establishments) the drifters are now very
                  desperate, teaching English being the only option they've got left and even
                  there only very bad schools or companies hire peoiple without training...
                • Michael L. Grant
                  ... You say tomayto, I say tomahto! :-) You re right, of course, but in spite of all the self-indulgent aspects of the expat scene there really was something
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Tuesday, September 30, 2003, at 08:02 PM, Darian and Veronika wrote:

                    > Sorry if I don't share your feelings. The early 90s in Prague was
                    > mostly loser gringo refugees from American colleges, living off
                    > daddy's money, playing (badly) at being the next Hemingway/F. Scott
                    > Fitzgerald generation (and having the nerve to actually claim the
                    > moniker anyway), strumming guitars on Karluv most and panhandling for
                    > cash, pretending to have some magical substance called "know-how" to
                    > sell, ripping people off posing as English teachers, laying the
                    > foundations for their own little insular world of Bohemia Bagels and
                    > other establishments where, not only did people not understand Czech,
                    > but they were also full of disdain for all things that were Czech
                    > (except the beer) and therefore "uncool." Just reading the jacket
                    > cover of Phillips' novel was enough to make me almost puke as I
                    > remembered those awful days...Prague is, always was, and always will
                    > be a magical place, but it never needed a horde of freeloaders to make
                    > it that way.

                    You say tomayto, I say tomahto! :-)
                    You're right, of course, but in spite of all the self-indulgent aspects
                    of the expat scene there really was something going on, even if
                    Phillips (in Budapest!) seems to be the only one to have actually
                    completed a novel out of the experience.
                    Further, in my own defense, I'd like to note that I personally most
                    certainly was not living off daddy's money and that I did know Czech
                    and was drawn there by Czech culture in the first place. :-)
                    Agreed that Prague has its own magic that has little to do with the
                    world of those days.

                    Ever read Hakim Bey's "Temporary Autonomous Zone"?

                    Michael
                  • Darian and Veronika
                    ... certainly was not living off daddy s money and that I did know Czech and was drawn there by Czech culture in the first place. :-) Michael, No, of course I
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >Further, in my own defense, I'd like to note that I personally most
                      certainly was not living off daddy's money and that I did know Czech
                      and was drawn there by Czech culture in the first place. :-)

                      Michael,

                      No, of course I didn't think for a moment you were that kind of person, otherwise you wouldn't be a member of this list today. As you could probably tell, the whole Prague expat scene of those days is something of a pet peeve of mine, and I probably saddled my high horse and drew my sabre a little too quickly there. Hey, it's not like I was "pan Cool" back then either, and our office on Trziste had more than one lunch delivery from Bohemia Bagels in its time. My wife would be the first one to tell you how much my Czech sucked when she met me, and she's got a bag of Ugly American stories she could spill about yours truly. (One day, in the late 90s even, when the U.S. dollar his 40 crowns, I "cleverly" remarked that we should save our cash and start stocking up on chocolate bars and nylons. Needless to say, I got severely slugged for that one.) I have to say, though, that, after Prague, it was refreshing to deal with an expat community like the one in Haiti where people are actually tuned in to what's going on around them and, in many cases, doing their damndest to make their presence a mutually beneficial one. Then there's Alberta, where we are now, and that's a whole horse (cow?) of yet again a different culture...

                      Darian



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Zemedelec@aol.com
                      ... It s funny you should come up with this quotation, because one of the best Czech teachers I had once told me, Certain things in Czech can t be explained
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 9/30/03 20:39:21, JPKIRCHNER@... writes:


                        > True quotations:
                        >      Frustrated Czech student:   "I am taking lesson from you already two
                        > years!   Exactly how you make a question in English?!"
                        >      Canadian "English teacher":   "You have to *feel* it!"
                        >
                        >

                        It's funny you should come up with this quotation, because one of the best
                        Czech teachers I had once told me, "Certain things in Czech can't be explained
                        logically-- you have to FEEL them." And eventually I began to feel my way into
                        the Czech language. Still working at it. (And the worst student I ever
                        met was a perfectly intelligent guy in many respects who insisted his tutor
                        explain WHY each feature of Czech grammar was the way it was. I had to bite my
                        tongue so as not to tell him, "At this point, why don't you just shut up and
                        learn the language." I think, in his defense, that he might have had an
                        undiagnosed form of Asperger's syndrome--he was in his 50s so it may not ever have
                        been "caught."


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Matej Klimes
                        , even if ... There s at least one other book - called Pink Tanks and Velvet Hangovers - written by a guy (wouldn t have heard of him) who followed his Czech
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          , even if
                          > Phillips (in Budapest!) seems to be the only one to have actually
                          > completed a novel out of the experience.


                          There's at least one other book - called Pink Tanks and Velvet Hangovers -
                          written by a guy (wouldn't have heard of him) who followed his Czech emigree
                          girlfriend to Czecho (trying for a troll there) in 1990, an amusing
                          collection of stereotypes from the beginning to the end, but not a bad crash
                          course in (very elementary) Czech history and (then) realia, which is why I
                          bought it for my "visitors information" shelf back in the days of "a friend
                          of a friedn is stopping in Prague, can he stay with you for a few
                          months?"...

                          M
                        • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                          ... Yeah, but this lady had been a Russian teacher, and her job was on the line if she didn t learn English. After two years with this Canadian, she came to
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 9/30/03 11:48:00 PM, Zemedelec@... writes:

                            > It's funny you should come up with this quotation, because one of the best
                            > Czech teachers I had once told me, "Certain things in Czech can't be
                            > explained
                            > logically-- you have to FEEL them."
                            >
                            Yeah, but this lady had been a Russian teacher, and her job was on the line
                            if she didn't learn English. After two years with this Canadian, she came to
                            my class never having been taught to use "do" to form an English question.
                            The guy mainly stood up in front of the class, talked about his girlfriend
                            problems or something, and expected his hapless students to absorb the language
                            somehow. He nearly had this woman out of a job, considering she was in a small
                            town with bad rail connections and had nowhere else to go.

                            Jamie


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • janvanek
                            ... bad crash ... Which reminds me, I occasionally need to express the Czech concept of rea lie in English and so far I have always failed, or had to
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@m...> wrote:

                              > Pink Tanks and Velvet Hangovers [...]
                              > an amusing
                              > collection of stereotypes from the beginning to the end, but not a
                              bad crash
                              > course in (very elementary) Czech history and (then) realia,

                              Which reminds me, I occasionally need to express the Czech concept
                              of "rea'lie" in English and so far I have always failed, or had to
                              circumscribe it long-windedly. Is "realia" indeed the Columbus egg
                              that would be comprehensible to a NS without rather associating
                              medieval scholasticism (dictionaries didn't seem to suggest so)? Or
                              what solution can mighty brains of the listmembers come up with?

                              THANKS in advance (I don't want to clutter the conference with them
                              post factum)

                              --
                              Jan Vanek jr.

                              malyctenar.blogspot.com - dokazi Lidove noviny najit cestu z _(a)
                              translating dead end_, i kdyz se jim pomuze s _road map_?
                            • Zemedelec@aol.com
                              ... problems or something, and expected his hapless students to absorb the language somehow.   He nearly had this woman out of a job, considering she was in
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 10/1/03 5:46:49, JPKIRCHNER@... writes:
                                >
                                > The guy mainly stood up in front of the class, talked about his girlfriend
                                problems or something, and expected his hapless students to absorb the
                                language
                                somehow.   He nearly had this woman out of a job, considering she was in a
                                small
                                town with bad rail connections and had nowhere else to go.


                                Ouch. He sounds pretty clueless. Not to mention irresponsible.


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                ... I don t know what a Columbus egg is, but the term realia would be understood by well-trained language teachers, but by few other people. We would say
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 10/1/03 8:51:37 AM, jan.vanek.jr@... writes:

                                  > Which reminds me, I occasionally need to express the Czech concept
                                  > of "rea'lie" in English and so far I have always failed, or had to
                                  > circumscribe it long-windedly. Is "realia" indeed the Columbus egg
                                  > that would be comprehensible to a NS without rather associating
                                  > medieval scholasticism (dictionaries didn't seem to suggest so)? Or
                                  > what solution can mighty brains of the listmembers come up with?
                                  >
                                  I don't know what a Columbus egg is, but the term "realia" would be
                                  understood by well-trained language teachers, but by few other people. We would say
                                  something like "items from daily life" or "authentic objects (texts, etc.)".

                                  Jamie


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                  Or very often authentic materials . That term is used in education as well as on the street. Jamie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Or very often "authentic materials". That term is used in education as well
                                    as on the street.

                                    Jamie


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • melvyn.geo
                                    ... I find that in practice I have only ever had to deal with the idea of realia in texts aimed at TEFL teachers. I wouldn t normally hesitate to use the
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, JPKIRCHNER@a... wrote:
                                      >
                                      In a message dated 10/1/03 8:51:37 AM, jan.vanek.jr@s... writes:

                                      > Which reminds me, I occasionally need to express the Czech
                                      >concept of "rea'lie" in English and so far I have always failed, or >had to circumscribe it long-windedly.

                                      I find that in practice I have only ever had to deal with the idea of 'realia' in texts aimed at TEFL teachers. I wouldn't normally hesitate to use the word in such contexts because it is succinct and in my experience the target audience is very likely to be familiar with it. Elsewhere I might consider putting it in inverted commas if context gives the non-TEFL reader a sporting chance of deducing what the writer is on about, which is not that difficult after all.

                                      Old Poldauf suggests 'life and institutions'. Some combination of 'life', 'institutions', '(popular) culture', 'customs', 'conventions' or even 'civilization' (used by a teacher friend at International House) might be considered.

                                      Not so sure about 'pragmatics' as an equivalent. I thought that pragmatics was basically the study of meaning, not as generated by the linguistic system but as conveyed and manipulated by the participants in particular communicative situations, e.g. "It's getting very hot in here" = "Mind if I open a window?" or "Goodness! Is that the time?" = "I'm out of here!". Implicature and that. Or am I talking through my hat, Jamie?



                                      M.
                                    • Darian and Veronika
                                      Je pense qu il faut employer l expression les actualites. ... From: melvyn.geo To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:14 PM
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Je pense qu'il faut employer l'expression "les actualites."
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: melvyn.geo
                                        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 3:14 PM
                                        Subject: [Czechlist] TERM: realie, was Re: Czechlist


                                        --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, JPKIRCHNER@a... wrote:
                                        >
                                        In a message dated 10/1/03 8:51:37 AM, jan.vanek.jr@s... writes:

                                        > Which reminds me, I occasionally need to express the Czech
                                        >concept of "rea'lie" in English and so far I have always failed, or >had to circumscribe it long-windedly.

                                        I find that in practice I have only ever had to deal with the idea of 'realia' in texts aimed at TEFL teachers. I wouldn't normally hesitate to use the word in such contexts because it is succinct and in my experience the target audience is very likely to be familiar with it. Elsewhere I might consider putting it in inverted commas if context gives the non-TEFL reader a sporting chance of deducing what the writer is on about, which is not that difficult after all.

                                        Old Poldauf suggests 'life and institutions'. Some combination of 'life', 'institutions', '(popular) culture', 'customs', 'conventions' or even 'civilization' (used by a teacher friend at International House) might be considered.

                                        Not so sure about 'pragmatics' as an equivalent. I thought that pragmatics was basically the study of meaning, not as generated by the linguistic system but as conveyed and manipulated by the participants in particular communicative situations, e.g. "It's getting very hot in here" = "Mind if I open a window?" or "Goodness! Is that the time?" = "I'm out of here!". Implicature and that. Or am I talking through my hat, Jamie?



                                        M.




                                        Visit the Czechlist Homepage at: http://www.bohemica.com/czechtranslation

                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
                                        ... I think you re talking about discourse analysis, rather than pragmatics. I think pragmatics mainly deals with information about culture or the real world
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 1, 2003
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          In a message dated 10/1/03 10:02:09 PM, bezdomovci@... writes:

                                          >   Not so sure about 'pragmatics' as an equivalent. I thought that
                                          > pragmatics was basically the study of meaning, not as generated by the linguistic
                                          > system but as conveyed and manipulated by the participants in particular
                                          > communicative situations, e.g. "It's getting very hot in here" = "Mind if I open a
                                          > window?" or "Goodness! Is that the time?" = "I'm out of here!". Implicature and
                                          > that. Or am I talking through my hat, Jamie?
                                          >
                                          I think you're talking about discourse analysis, rather than pragmatics. I
                                          think pragmatics mainly deals with information about culture or the real world
                                          that is necessary to interpret a text. Pragmatics would deal with why many
                                          of my ESL students can't make sense out of a text like this:

                                          It was the day of the big party. Jennifer wondered if Tom would
                                          like a kite.
                                          She went to her room and shook her piggy bank. There was no
                                          sound.

                                          Students recently arrived from Vietnam or China get almost nothing out of
                                          this, even if they understand every word. Some students from the Middle East
                                          think that Tom and Jennifer are adults, that the party is a wedding, and that
                                          there is no sound because the wedding guests have not arrived yet. One guy
                                          from Macedonia thought that there was no sound because the wind wasn't blowing,
                                          and so they could not fly the kite. The students knew all the words in the
                                          text, but they lacked certain practical and cultural information necessary to
                                          interpret them. That kind of cultural and factual subtext is what is studied
                                          in the field of pragmatics.

                                          Since I wrote my last e-mail, it's hit me that "reálie" in Czech does not
                                          exactly mean the same thing as "realia" in English. The way I usually hear the
                                          term used in English, it means "authentic" texts or materials brought into the
                                          classroom from the real world. So, the ESL teacher who empties his backpack
                                          in front of the class and discusses the contents with the class is using
                                          "realia". Likewise, the teacher who brings instruction manuals or cookbooks into
                                          a class, or uses real radio advertisements as listening exercises is
                                          employing "realia", but this is not "reálie", as far as I know.

                                          When I talk about the reálie I had to know for my statnice, I usually call it
                                          in English "cultural information", since it was a mash of history, specific
                                          locations of the monuments to different Czech artists I had never heard of,
                                          identifying kroje by region even though most Czechs can't do it, etc.

                                          Basically, "reálie" is cultural subject matter to be learned, and "realia"
                                          are teaching tools dragged in from real life.

                                          Jamie


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.