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Help: Term: PRIZIVNICTVI

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  • Lucie Formankova <formanl@cmail.cz>
    Hi, does anybody know the proper legalese word for the above term? I found parasitism in Chroma s Law Dictionary, and got a few hits for it on Google (among
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
      Hi,

      does anybody know the proper legalese word for the above term? I
      found "parasitism" in Chroma's Law Dictionary, and got a few hits for
      it on Google (among the millions on biology), although I don't know
      whether it is really used correctly in a legal context.

      The few remotely relevant contexts I found on the internet are, for
      example:
      "Not only did this legitimize the badgering of Roma from towns and
      villages, but it also compelled the Roma to live in "a nomadic life
      and in isolated cases to make a living by parasitism…[described as]
      fortune telling, magical healing, and theft."
      http://lgi.osi.hu/ethnic/relations/1/roma.html

      There are some sites talking about "economic parasitism", but that's
      not really it. What is spoken of in my text is the "crime" of being
      unemployed, persecuted by the former communist regime.

      Could anyone help?

      Lucie
    • Michael Trittipo
      Maybe the closest in AE would be what used to be considered the crime of vagrancy -- moving about without any visible means of support. See, e.g.,
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
        Maybe the closest in AE would be what used to be considered the "crime"
        of vagrancy -- moving about without any visible means of support. See,
        e.g., http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/v1/vagrancy.asp. If it's against
        Roma now, I'd call it "vagrancy." If you want the period/régime flavor,
        then maybe "social parasitism" would still be good.
      • melvyn.geo <zehrovak@dr.com>
        ... Hello Lucie, The great age of my Poldauf/Pynsent dictionary (published 1986) might actually come in useful here: Prizivnictvi: [prav.] social parasitism I
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Lucie Formankova <formanl@c...>" <formanl@c...> wrote:

          >
          > There are some sites talking about "economic parasitism", but that's
          > not really it. What is spoken of in my text is the "crime" of being
          > unemployed, persecuted by the former communist regime.
          >

          Hello Lucie,

          The great age of my Poldauf/Pynsent dictionary (published 1986) might actually come in useful here:

          Prizivnictvi: [prav.] social parasitism

          I think you'd have to go quite a long way back into history to find a native English legal term for the "crime" of being a 'sturdy beggar' (zast. zdravy clovek stitici se prace - Hais Hodek). 'Social parasitism' has a nice officious Stalinist ring to it IMHO.

          Regards,

          M.
        • Michael Trittipo
          Speech on vagrancy, from 1893: http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5308/
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
            Speech on vagrancy, from 1893:

            http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5308/
          • Michael Trittipo
            ... Maybe not so far. See, e.g., http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/faqs.htm for current FBI use of vagrancy, the classical (common law, pre-statutory or
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
              >
              >
              >I think you'd have to go quite a long way back into history to find a native English legal term for the "crime" of being a 'sturdy beggar' (zast. zdravy clovek stitici se prace - Hais Hodek).
              >

              Maybe not so far. See, e.g., http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/faqs.htm for current
              FBI use of "vagrancy," the classical (common law, pre-statutory or
              pre-codification) definition of which is basically in line with the
              definition of pr(í~ivnictví. Mind, I think most courts would still agree
              such laws are void, but they're still on the books.

              > 'Social parasitism' has a nice officious Stalinist ring to it IMHO.
              >
              >
              Agreed; although it also has a nice officious right-wing conservative
              ring to it, too. :-)

              Yours having recently rented The Manchurian Candidate on those pesky
              left?right? issues,
              Mike T
            • Michael Trittipo
              And, not to make it an AE/BE thing, http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00157-04.asp (reference to prevention of crimes and vagrancy);
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
                And, not to make it an AE/BE thing,
                http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00157-04.asp (reference to
                prevention of crimes and vagrancy);
                http://www.greenparty.org.uk/policy/mfss/crime.html, saying that "The
                Green Party calls for the repeal of the Vagrancy Act 1824 because it is
                open to abuse by police and government. It discriminates against
                homeless people and wrongly labels them as criminals when their plight
                is a social problem"; and
                http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199192/cmhansrd/1991-11-13/Writtens-2.html
                (giving 1989 ## of convictions for begging and "sleeping out" under the
                Vagrancy Act).

                Yours, usually not guilty of "sleeping in public" except at the orchestra
                Mike T

                (N.B. This is just for fun -- I agree that "social parasitism" is a
                good term.)
              • melvyn.geo <zehrovak@dr.com>
                ... Vagrancy is certainly a good idea too, particularly when applied to people with an itinerant lifestyle. The problem for me is that most people do
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, Michael Trittipo <tritt002@t...> wrote:

                  >
                  > (N.B. This is just for fun -- I agree that "social parasitism" is a
                  > good term.)

                  'Vagrancy' is certainly a good idea too, particularly when applied to people with an itinerant lifestyle. The problem for me is that most people do associate it with vagabondage and wandering around, whereas I have been a social security 'scrounger' (or 'gentleman of leisure' as my father referred to me) for many pleasant months without moving further than the dole office.

                  M.
                • coilin_oconnor <coilin@mybox.cz>
                  ... to people with an itinerant lifestyle. The problem for me is that most people do associate it with vagabondage and wandering around, whereas I have been a
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
                    > 'Vagrancy' is certainly a good idea too, particularly when applied
                    to people with an itinerant lifestyle. The problem for me is that
                    most people do associate it with vagabondage and wandering around,
                    whereas I have been a social security 'scrounger' (or 'gentleman of
                    leisure' as my father referred to me) for many pleasant months
                    without moving further than the dole office.
                    >
                    > M

                    FWIW, the new(ish) Oxford Dictionary of Law has this to say about
                    vagrancy:
                    vagrant (n): A person classified under the Vagrancy Act 1824 as
                    an "idle and disorderly person", a "rogue and vagabond" or
                    an "incorrigible rogue". The first of these groups includes pedlars
                    who trade without a licence, prostitutes who behave indecently in a
                    public place, and those who beg in a public place. Rogues and
                    vagabonds include those with a second conviction for being idle and
                    disorderly, those who collect charity under false pretences, and
                    tramps who do not make use of available places of shelter.
                    Incorrigible rogues include those with a second conviction for being
                    rogues and vagabonds. Vagrants are usually liable to imprisonment
                    for between one month and one year depending on which class they
                    fall under, although beggars and tramps sleeping rough are liable
                    only to fines. The Act also provides for various powers to search
                    them or their property.

                    I am not sure how helpful this is but I thought I'd post it anyway.
                    I wonder if AE statutebooks are quite as quaint (I particularly
                    like "incorrigible rogue")

                    Best regards
                    Coilin
                  • Michael Trittipo
                    ccmc I wonder if AE statutebooks are quite as quaint (I particularly ccmc like incorrigible rogue ) On some of these crimes, yes. Sleeping out is a heck
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
                      ccmc> I wonder if AE statutebooks are quite as quaint (I particularly
                      ccmc> like "incorrigible rogue")

                      On some of these crimes, yes. "Sleeping out" is a heck of a crime. But
                      given the question, I'm a bit embarrassed to have to confess to NOT
                      having looked on the Westlaw CD that's now sitting back at the office
                      while I'm at home. I'd checked it for "perfidy," but not this.

                      In the meantime, though, in case it may help, I see that the
                      Anglicko-Slovensky Slovensko-Anglicky Pravnicky Slovnik (Stefan
                      Franko, Presov 1995) gives "prizivnik: parasite, sponger, vagrant" and
                      gives "vagrant: potulny, prizivnik."

                      Michael mailto:tritt002@...
                    • Lucie Formankova <formanl@cmail.cz>
                      Many thanks to Melvyn, Coilin, and Michael for their help with this term. I decided to use social parasitism , because to my mind, vagrancy had this
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
                        Many thanks to Melvyn, Coilin, and Michael for their help with this
                        term. I decided to use "social parasitism", because to my
                        mind, "vagrancy" had this "movement" connotation to it that is not
                        really applicable in my context.

                        Thanks again,

                        Lucie


                        >
                        > In the meantime, though, in case it may help, I see that the
                        > Anglicko-Slovensky Slovensko-Anglicky Pravnicky Slovnik (Stefan
                        > Franko, Presov 1995) gives "prizivnik: parasite, sponger, vagrant"
                        and
                        > gives "vagrant: potulny, prizivnik."
                        >
                        > Michael mailto:tritt002@t...
                      • Michael <tritt002@tc.umn.edu>
                        ... Excellent choice. Just for interest s sake (to follow up on my admission of not having looked at the statutes yesterday, and on someone else s question
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Lucie Formankova wrote:
                          > . . . decided to use "social parasitism" . . ..

                          Excellent choice.

                          Just for interest's sake (to follow up on my admission of not having
                          looked at the statutes yesterday, and on someone else's question about
                          whether the term is still used in AE statutes as it is in the UK),
                          here's a current definition from the set of statutes I know best
                          (chapter 609 being the criminal code) (I especially like subdivision 4
                          about fortune telling making one a vagrant):

                          Minn.Stat.Ann. § 609.725:
                          "Vagrancy
                          Any of the following are vagrants and are guilty of a misdemeanor:
                          (1) A person, with ability to work, who is without lawful means of
                          support, does not seek employment, and is not under 18 years of age; or
                          (2) A person found in or loitering near any structure, vehicle, or
                          private grounds who is there without the consent of the owner and is
                          unable to account for being there; or
                          (3) A prostitute who loiters on the streets or in a public place or
                          in a place open to the public with intent to solicit for immoral
                          purposes; or
                          (4) A person who derives support in whole or in part from begging or
                          as a fortune teller or similar impostor."

                          For Czechlisters' amusement (or outrage, or whatever other reaction it
                          may inspire, depending on one's inclinations or sympathies), here is a
                          copy of the drafting committee's comments:

                          "Ever since the breakdown of the feudal system, Anglo-American
                          society appears to have had its residue of persons not fitting into
                          the social structure. Though able, they do not work, do not want to
                          work, have no family ties, belong to no neighborhood, live on what is
                          discarded by others or by theft or begging, and often move from one
                          locality to another. They are the inhabitants of skid row.

                          The laws on vagrancy have been developed to deal with this class of
                          persons. Such laws have existed from about the 14th century and a
                          peculiar characteristic of them has been that they punish being such a
                          person rather than an act committed by him. Hence such phrases as
                          "lives in idleness," "without visible means of support," "unable to
                          give a good account of himself," etc.

                          This offense has usually been made a misdemeanor. Since these
                          persons seldom can pay fines, punishment has consisted in confinement
                          in the workhouse, frequently suspended on condition of getting out of
                          town.

                          For the police, such laws have several advantages:
                          [list omitted by MAT]
                          . . .
                          While the statutes of the several states have much in common, in
                          detail they vary greatly. Generally speaking they center about (1)
                          idleness without "visible means of support" or "unable to give a good
                          account of himself;" (2) common prostitutes; (3) beggars; (4)
                          loiterers; and (5) sleeping in buildings or out of doors. Not an
                          isolated instance but the habit of doing these things constitutes the
                          doer a vagrant."
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