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RE: [Czechlist] Re: sealing parents, social parents

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  • Milan Condak
    Veroniko, dekuji. Doufam, ze tazatel a nekteri dalsi ctenari vyuziji zejmena popis metodiky, jak a kde byly informace nalezeny. Rovnez preji vse nejlepsi do
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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      Veroniko,

      dekuji. Doufam, ze tazatel a nekteri dalsi ctenari vyuziji zejmena popis
      metodiky,
      jak a kde byly informace nalezeny.

      Rovnez preji vse nejlepsi do noveho roku

      Milan Condak

      > -----Pùvodní zpráva-----
      > Od: Veronika <meluzinax@...> [mailto:meluzinax@...]
      > Odesláno: 5. ledna 2003 9:45
      > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Pøedmìt: [Czechlist] Re: sealing parents, social parents
      >
      > vyrazy jsem nikdy neslysela a sama jsem byla zvedava
      > doufam, ze jsem aspon trosku pomohla
      > vse nejlepsi do noveho roku
      > veronika
    • melvyn.geo <zehrovak@dr.com>
      Zdravicko a stastny novy rok, Mateji a spol.,Je to docela hezky kus prace a mas tam nekolik reseni tak sikovnych, ze oku= suji tuzku zarlivosti. Jenom obcas
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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        Zdravicko a stastny novy rok, Mateji a spol.,

        Je to docela hezky kus prace a mas tam nekolik reseni tak sikovnych, ze oku=
        suji tuzku zarlivosti. Jenom obcas vycitim, ze bys mohl trochu efektivneji v=
        yuzivat vyrazovych zdroju anglictiny, ale asi jsem v pozici Petra Adamka v n=
        edavno citovane korespondenci, kde rika, ze preklad neni adekvatni, ale ne a=
        ne najit ten spravny (viz dal)...

        >my point was should one do it to the point of changing things he says so t=
        hat they are easier to read??

        Mam dojem, ze ten tvuj konecny vseobecny pristup vubec neni spatny. Jak rik=
        aji kolegove, mame obcas oklestit, pretvorit a nekdy rozdelit ty kosate vety=
        , tak aby text byl pristupnejsi a ctivejsi pro angofonniho ctenare, ale niko=
        liv na ukor hlavnich myslenek a zvlastniho pololiterarniho stylu. Jak rika S=
        imon, prekladatel a/nebo korektor musi v rukave mit vselijake finty s vyrazi=
        vem, aby provedli kvadraturu kruhu presvedcivym zpusobem.

        Matej zase:
        >... No really, my point wasn't whether a NS doing it from scratch would do=
        a better job (but I'll wellcome opinions on that too),

        Juuu zase tohle?? :) V tomto pripade, kde odborne znalosti nehrajou velkou =
        ulohu zatimco styl hraje podstatnou ulohu, normalne bych ocekaval, aby ten p=
        rvotni preklad 'spachal' rodily mluvci ciloveho jazyka. Ale urcite to neni =
        pevne pravidlo. Ja si nemuzu stezovat na nerodile 'prvotni' prekladatele, p=
        rotoze sam jsem prelozil mj 400-strankovou knihu ze sve materstiny do cestin=
        y ale jenom a pouze diky tomu, ze pracuji s prvotridni ceskou korektorkou, k=
        tera se vyborne vyzna v subtilnostech cestiny i melvynstiny a nikoliv kvuli =
        tomu, ze ja sam umim poradne vyuzivat ceske vyrazivo. Chyba lavky. Otazka vy=
        hodnosti rodilych/nerodilych prekladatelu muze byt nekdy druhotna a bezvycho=
        dna podle me a radsi bych se ptal, jestli funguje tymova prace mezi nimi dob=
        re nebo spatne.

        > but whether we should (whether one should) un-Havel Havel's sentences to =
        the point that they'd be any-other-politician's.

        Ne. A znovu ne.

        Kostas napsal:
        >It is just a translation of Havel, and he sounds rather as a New Age heale=
        r recently turned to a Geography teacher :-), not as Bush. And yet, it is "w=
        esternized" in the sense that it resembles the New Age style.

        Zajimavy postreh. Musim priznat, ze by mi to ihned nenapadlo ale asi castec=
        ne kvuli tomu, ze ja sam jsem trochu takovy holisticko-homeopaticky a ze kaz=
        dopadne takove mlhave teoretizovani je u nas podle me dost beznym recnickym =
        platidlem, aspon ve srovnani s uzem starsi generace tady, a dovolujeme si ta=
        kove vagni spekulace, aniz bychom ocekavali, ze by je nekdo bral jako vedeck=
        ou pravdu nebo bozi slovo. Mimochodem, precetl jsem nekde, ze slovo Evropa m=
        a puvod v nejakem staroegyptskem slovu s vyznamem "cerny", pry kvuli barve p=
        udy na nasem kontinentu, ale moje zdroje jsou asi i mene vedecke nez ty Havl=
        ovy.

        Mateji, nemuzu tady delat vycerpavajici rozbor tveho prekladu, ale rad bych=
        probral par veci. Nejdriv par zajimavych reseni:

        V podstate tri roky velkeho revolucniho kvasu,
        Three years of political turmoil,

        Asi mas pravdu, ze "revolutionary ferment" nebude uplne na miste a "turmoil=
        " se mi moc libi, ale urcite bych spojil ten kvas se slovem "great". A nesl=
        o by to jako "post-revolutionary"?

        duraznejsi rec
        assertive talk
        Strasne se mi to libi. Kdyby to byl sachovy tah, dostal bys oceneni "!!"

        Predevsim: svet v nas uz davno nevidi jen nejaky zbytek zruseneho statu,
        First and foremost: the world has long ceased to see us as a left-over of s=
        ome divided country,
        !!!

        k velke hospodarske kriminalite jako te horsi odpovedi na pokuseni, jimiz b=
        yla privatizace provazena.
        to rampant white-collar crime, a common ill response to the temptation inhe=
        rent in Czech privatization.
        !!! Jenom ze slovo "ill" mi moc nesedi ani tady ani jinde v tomto prekladu.=
        Asi "negative" je vhodnejsi tady. Anebo asi bych jenom pouzil 'reaction to =
        the temptations of Czech privatization' a negativnost bych vyjadril telesnym=
        jazykem. :-)

        ti, kteri vraceji sprave veci verejnych jeji nejvlastnejsi smysl.
        prove the forgotten truth that public administration is about the public.
        !!!! Prohryzl jsem tuzku.

        prevratny vyznam
        ground-breaking importance
        !!!!


        Jenom jednu hrubku jsem nasel:
        the problems that laid underneath the surface of the previous regime.

        Lie/lay/lain. :)

        Jo a "can not" je normalne "cannot".



        Priklady kde doporucuji efektivnejsi vyuziti anglickeho vyraziva (ale netvr=
        dim, ze moje verze jsou optimalni):


        Bylo by skv?lé, kdyby jejich vstup do r?zných oblastí ve?ejného života vedl=
        k tomu, že se budeme stále v?cn?ji, d?kladn?ji a bez p?edsudk? zabývat vlas=
        tní minulostí, bez jejíž otev?ené reflexe nem?žeme být dob?e sami sebou, a ž=
        e se budeme stále úsp?šn?ji rozcházet s mnoha nedobrými následky zhoubného d=
        íla, jež p?edchozí režim napáchal v našich duších.

        Tvoje verze (1)
        It would be great if the breaking through of these people into various part=
        s of public life leads to our society more factually, thoroughly and imparti=
        ally examining its past, without whose reflection we cannot be ourselves. I =
        also hope it will lead to our successfully parting with many ill consequence=
        s of the work of destruction the communist regime wreaked upon our souls.

        Moje varianta (2)
        Tady citim silnou osobni vyzvu:
        It would be marvellous if the entry of these people into the various sphere=
        s of public life made us examine our own past all the more thoroughly, objec=
        tively and impartially, as we can never truly be ourselves without such open=
        -minded deliberation. I also hope that we shall increasingly manage to leave=
        behind us the dire aftermath of the devastation wrought on our souls by the=
        previous regime.
        Anebo asi trochu prehanim s tim devastation? No tak destruction.





        Zvykli jsme si na nove nabyte svobody a plne jich vyuzivame,

        (1)
        We have become used to newly-won freedoms and are using them to the fullest=
        ;

        (2)
        We have become accustomed to our newly-won freedoms and we are taking full =
        advantage of them.
        Abychom dodrzeli ten havlovsky literarni raz

        Tu uspesneji, tu mene uspesne

        (1)
        Sometimes with more success and sometimes with less,

        (2)
        With varying degrees of success,


        To vsechno je uz davno pryc, patri to do historie, a mne se s odstupem casu=
        stale vic zda, ze at uz se to tehdy stalo jakkoli divne, je dobre, ze se to=
        stalo

        (1):
        All that is now long-gone--is history--and after all this time, I can not h=
        elp but feel that no matter how queerly it happened then, it is a good thing=
        that it happened.


        (2):
        Hezke ale 'queerly' neni podle me uplne vono:
        All that is now long past -- it is now all history -- but as time goes by, =
        it increasingly seems to me that no matter how strange the way it happened w=
        as, the fact that it did happen is a good thing.

        manevrovanim ve sfere moci

        (1)
        maneuvering in the sphere of power,

        (2)
        jockeying for power


        koristi k rozdeleni

        (1)
        loot to apportion

        (2)
        loot/spoils to be shared (out)
        Apportion je asi moc knizni a neni to bezne slovni spojeni.

        dohadovani
        haggling je asi expresivnejsi nez pouhe bargaining?

        Ve spolecnosti je silna vule k dobrym cinum.

        (1)
        our society is full of drive for acts of good will.

        (2)
        'Goodwill' je dobry napad ale 'drive' je IMHO tady problematicky. Mimochode=
        m ja sam nekdy vaham pouzit slovo 'will' jako 'vule', protoze anglofonnim us=
        im muze znit v urcitych kontextech az moc nietzscheovsky. Nekdy si vyberu 'm=
        irnejsi' slovo jako 'wish' nebo 'desire' (IMHO 'projev vule' jde casto lepe =
        jako 'expression of the desire' nez 'manifestation of the will'). Ale nekdy=
        to jde. Neni nic neanglickeho na vyrazech jako 'political will', 'the will =
        to succeed', atp a jestli z toho vane nejaky stredoevropsky intelektualni na=
        dech, to tu snad prilis neuskodi, tak ze v jednom smeru mame:
        Our society is imbued with a strong will to perform good deeds…
        Anebo trochu vzdaleneji od originalu ale plynuleji:
        There is a strong current of goodwill running through our society…
        Asi bych si konecne vybral tu druhou variantu. :)



        Jde jen o to uvolnovat ji i tehdy, kdy nestojime tvari v tvar katastrofe, a=
        systematicky vytvaret klima, ktere ji bude prat.

        (1)
        The only complications lie in helping to release this pent-up drive even in=
        times when we are not standing face to face with catastrophe, and systemati=
        cally creating a friendly climate for it--one that is charitable towards the=
        charitable.

        (2)
        It is just a matter of giving free rein to this goodwill even when we are n=
        ot actually faced by disaster, and of consistently providing a congenial env=
        ironment for it to flourish.

        Ten tvuj 'pent-up' se mi ale moc libi. Mimochodem ta posledni veta je hezk=
        e okrasleni! Tam spociva nejaky pribeh?

        souziti
        coexist among themselves
        "Among ourselves" je asi pleonasmus.

        mnohaleta usili

        (1)
        long efforts

        (2)
        our endeavours over many years

        kez by tato zeme byla uz natrvalo a stale zretelneji hezkym a slusnym domov=
        em nas vsech, kez bychom na ni mohli byt stale hrdejsi!

        (1)
        May this country finally, permanently, and more and more distinctly be a fi=
        ne and respectable home for all of us; may we be more and more proud of it!

        (2)
        Tady asi mame spis kompenzovat puvodni lexikalni kosatost s honosnejsim ang=
        lickym stylem?

        May this country forever be a finer, fairer home for us all, and may we hav=
        e cause to be ever prouder of it!

        Amen?

        M.
        ---
        I may not be perfect but parts of me are excellent.
        - Inscription on one of Lin's coffee-mugs
      • Matej Klimes
        Thanks Melvyn, Simon, Erik, Kostas, Michal... ... oku= ... blush blush... Jenom obcas vycitim, ze bys mohl trochu efektivneji v= ... n= ... a= ... No jo, nikdy
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
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          Thanks Melvyn, Simon, Erik, Kostas, Michal...


          > Je to docela hezky kus prace a mas tam nekolik reseni tak sikovnych, ze
          oku=
          > suji tuzku zarlivosti.

          blush blush...

          Jenom obcas vycitim, ze bys mohl trochu efektivneji v=
          > yuzivat vyrazovych zdroju anglictiny, ale asi jsem v pozici Petra Adamka v
          n=
          > edavno citovane korespondenci, kde rika, ze preklad neni adekvatni, ale ne
          a=
          > ne najit ten spravny (viz dal)...

          No jo, nikdy nic neni idealni, (hm, ze? - abych to komentoval spravne po
          Havlovsku)


          V tomto pripade, kde odborne znalosti nehrajou velkou =
          > ulohu zatimco styl hraje podstatnou ulohu, normalne bych ocekaval, aby ten
          p=
          > rvotni preklad 'spachal' rodily mluvci ciloveho jazyka.

          Asi je to skutecne jedno, ja jsem to nechtel jen tak "give away" :) Ale
          stejne si myslim, ze i dlouhodobe pocesteny NS by nemusel pochopit vsechny
          (hlavne meziradkove) nuance a Havlismy a tim padem by spoustu vynechal?? Na
          druhe strane Cech se v nich tak zamota, ze pak potrebuje NS aby to trochu
          probral, hm, ze?

          Ja jsem ten preklad prospikoval poznamkama pod carou, kde jsem pro korektora
          vysvetloval mozne varianty, doplnoval skryte vyznamy atd., aby NS korektor
          mohl premyslet i o jinych zpusobech... meli jsme to asi probrat jeste mezi
          sebou, ale na to kolem Silvestra nezbyl cas...


          > > but whether we should (whether one should) un-Havel Havel's sentences to
          =
          > the point that they'd be any-other-politician's.
          >
          > Ne. A znovu ne.

          Thanks for confirming, I started doubting my initial decision...


          > Asi mas pravdu, ze "revolutionary ferment" nebude uplne na miste a
          "turmoil=
          > " se mi moc libi, ale urcite bych spojil ten kvas se slovem "great". A
          nesl=
          > o by to jako "post-revolutionary"?

          But what revolution? Would every English speaker immediately know? That's
          why I opted for political - that's what it was anyway..

          >
          > duraznejsi rec
          > assertive talk
          > Strasne se mi to libi. Kdyby to byl sachovy tah, dostal bys oceneni "!!"

          blush, blush


          > Predevsim: svet v nas uz davno nevidi jen nejaky zbytek zruseneho statu,
          > First and foremost: the world has long ceased to see us as a left-over of
          s=
          > ome divided country,
          > !!!

          Left-over was criticized, actually, but I like it here...

          >
          > k velke hospodarske kriminalite jako te horsi odpovedi na pokuseni, jimiz
          b=
          > yla privatizace provazena.
          > to rampant white-collar crime, a common ill response to the temptation
          inhe=
          > rent in Czech privatization.
          > !!! Jenom ze slovo "ill" mi moc nesedi ani tady ani jinde v tomto
          prekladu.=
          > Asi "negative" je vhodnejsi tady. Anebo asi bych jenom pouzil 'reaction
          to =
          > the temptations of Czech privatization' a negativnost bych vyjadril
          telesnym=
          > jazykem. :-)

          Not from my brains/guts, but it made sense in the sentence to me. Plus the
          original was so complicated anything sounded better :)

          > ti, kteri vraceji sprave veci verejnych jeji nejvlastnejsi smysl.
          > prove the forgotten truth that public administration is about the public.
          > !!!! Prohryzl jsem tuzku.

          I couldn't do this one, kept thinking in Czech terms (the Czech here is
          actually VERY PS [Polit-Speak] and un-Havel) - thanks to NS proofreaders! I
          actually italicized public to give it an extra touch, but that got lost in
          .html conversion along with other fine formatting.

          > Jenom jednu hrubku jsem nasel:
          > the problems that laid underneath the surface of the previous regime.
          >
          > Lie/lay/lain. :)
          >
          > Jo a "can not" je normalne "cannot".

          Oouch! Back to Cambridge basic....


          > Priklady kde doporucuji efektivnejsi vyuziti anglickeho vyraziva (ale
          netvr=
          > dim, ze moje verze jsou optimalni):

          I agree with all your improvements, thanks, I'll run it past you next time
          if there's time :)

          > jockeying for power

          Not too BrENG?

          > dohadovani
          > haggling je asi expresivnejsi nez pouhe bargaining?

          Well, haggling was the first word that came to me, but I saw Arab markets at
          the same time and wasn't sure if it wasn't too informal a word for a big
          speech.


          > Ten tvuj 'pent-up' se mi ale moc libi. Mimochodem ta posledni veta je
          hezk=
          > e okrasleni! Tam spociva nejaky pribeh?

          They both are the proofreader's


          > Amen?

          Definitely, and thanks.

          Matej
        • melvyn.geo <zehrovak@dr.com>
          ... Kazda strana samozrejme ma svoje slabosti a proto jsem zduraznil tu tymovou praci (neboli vzajemnou spolupraci jak rikame my pocesteni cizi certi),
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 8, 2003
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            --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@m...> wrote:

            >Ale stejne si myslim, ze i dlouhodobe pocesteny NS by nemusel pochopit vsechny (hlavne meziradkove) nuance a Havlismy a tim padem by spoustu vynechal?? Na druhe strane Cech se v nich tak zamota, ze pak potrebuje NS aby to trochu probral, hm, ze?

            Kazda strana samozrejme ma svoje slabosti a proto jsem zduraznil tu 'tymovou praci' (neboli 'vzajemnou spolupraci' jak rikame my pocesteni cizi certi), spis nez otazku, kdo to nejlip umi - ale jsem prece zvedav - dej mi priklad meziradkove nuance v tomto textu, ktery by asi prehledl zkuseny NS.

            Melvyn napsal:
            >> Asi mas pravdu, ze "revolutionary ferment" nebude uplne na miste a "turmoil" se mi moc libi, ale urcite bych spojil ten kvas se slovem "great". A neslo by to jako "post-revolutionary"?

            Matej se potom vyjadril v tomto smyslu:
            >But what revolution? Would every English speaker immediately know? That's why I opted for political - that's what it was anyway...

            Rekl bych, ze "sametova revoluce" je klicovy pojem, ktery poskytuje spolecnou pudu i pro Havlovo mysleni i pro vedomost prumerneho gramotniho anglofona, anebo kecam? Sice je nekde nekdo v anglofonnim svete, kdo nikdy neslysel o sametaku ale doufal bych, ze prave z takoveho textu by se o nem aspon neco dozvedel. Anebo skutecnost ze nejde o klasickou ozbrojenou revoluci je duvod, abychom se prestali o ni takhle zminovat, i kdyz se tento catchphrase globalne ujal?

            Muj hlavni problem s timto slovnim spojenim je spis to, ze pro me slovo "ferment" ('kvas') oznacuje bublani predtim, nez to vsechno prdne, spis nez neporadek, ktery doprovazi a nasleduje prevratne zmeny, o kterem vlastne mluvi Havel, a proto se mi ten tvuj "turmoil" tak libi. Asi jsem vinen tim, ze chci nejak "zlepsovat" a objasnovat puvodni vyznam ale tim bych nechtel vylit s vanickou i dite, tj klicovy pojem, ktery se bezne spojuje s Havlem.

            >>> Predevsim: svet v nas uz davno nevidi jen nejaky zbytek zruseneho statu,
            >>> First and foremost: the world has long ceased to see us as a left-over of some divided country,

            >> !!!

            >Left-over was criticized, actually, but I like it here...

            No, nekdy se mluvi take napr o "rump Yugoslavia" ale slovo 'left-over(s?)' je pekne vystizne a slovo "divided" hezky roztalo gordicky uzel slova 'zruseny' IMO.

            >> jockeying for power

            >Not too BrENG?

            CNN - Political parties jockey for power in India
            www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/12/india/

            I kdyby nejaky anglofon nikdy v zivote neslysel tento vyraz, coz mi pripada velmi nepravdepodobne (ale zaoceansti kolegove me snad opravi), jenom si ma predstavit, co delaji zokejove kdyz se priblizuji k cili a ihned je to vsechno samozrejme a vystizne, ne? Mimochodem casteji je to "jockeying for position".


            >> dohadovani
            >> haggling je asi expresivnejsi nez pouhe bargaining?

            >Well, haggling was the first word that came to me, but I saw Arab markets at the same time and wasn't sure if it wasn't too informal a word for a big speech.

            Nemame se tady snazit i o urcity (polo)literarni smrnc spis nez o ciste formalni styl?

            Zase pred tebou smekam!

            Melvyn
            ---

            "Makes you think, when you think about it, don't you think?"
            "I don't know. I've never really thought about it."
            - Presumed by Michael to have been overheard by Melvyn on a Manchester bus.
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