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FAQ: How to translate Havel

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  • Matej Klimes
    Hi list, I translated a couple of things for Havel s office recently (incredible how skimpy they are) - an article for The Finnancial Times, a NATO Summit
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 2, 2003
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      Hi list,

      I translated a couple of things for Havel's office recently (incredible how
      skimpy they are) - an article for The Finnancial Times, a NATO Summit Press
      Conferrence, and now his last NY address (how many of you watched?)....

      While the two former were straightforward enough (if such a thing exists
      with Havel speaking or writting) and the only thing I had to do was to think
      of how an English-speaking journalist would write them and go into
      media-cliche-mode, the latter one was a bit difficult...

      As always with Havel, it was very wordy and intellectual, although not as
      good as his early speeches. I choose the approach I somethimes use when I
      want to make sure the target text will not suffer from me inserting false
      (non-native speaker) English ideas in it - I translated it fairly close to
      what it said in the Czech version (not verbatim, but not changing the
      sentence structure or logic as much as one should do in order to make it
      sound natural English) - and then had a NS proofread and edit it - hoping
      that we'll end somewhere between Havel's complicated and wordy version and
      what would be a natural English-speaking politician's speech.

      Just before I did the final edit and sent it off on 31st, I panicked and
      started thinking that it still sounded too Czech and complicated. We had a
      somewhat heated discussion with my girlfriend (who often interprets for
      Havel) over how much should one change:

      - Her approach would be to only use sentences/way things are said that an
      English NS and a politician would use in a speech, i.e. the closest
      speech-bits-one-hears-often to what Havel was actually saying (or what we
      thought he was saying:) - which, in my opninion, while it would make the
      speech sound better, would also make it a "Bush-speech" (written by someone
      on his team, good and professional, but full of buzzwords, pathos, a bit
      predictible and boring - unless he gets carried off during one of his "holy
      war" proclamations, or makes a silly mistake, but that's another story)....

      - I argued that would be going too far. I do use a similar technique when
      translating most of my stuff - technical docs, journalism or PR pieces
      (think of how a NS working in the relevant field would say something the
      Czech doc is saying and then write it, no matter if I end up with quite a
      different sentence structure, etc. - the meaning and "correct style" for
      that field is the most important thing - of course it doesn't work for all
      areas, certain types of legal stuff, for example...).

      I do think that a bit more could have been done to the "Czechness" of the
      speech, but it was difficult because Havel hardly ever uses sentences
      shorter than one paragraph and since he usually builds them up to a
      gradation, they are extremely difficult to break up and still retain all the
      meaning. I didn't do much in the end as it was due in a couple of hours and
      I'd probably end up changing every sentence and it would require another
      proof.... All we did was to get rid of Havel's favourite multiple "dear
      friends, dear fellow citizens, etc. etc." and, thanks to the proofreader,
      changed the way we said some things English speakers wouldn't understand...

      The speech doesn't seem to have been published much in its entirety,
      (luckily?)...

      I would appreciate comments on what you think the correct approach would be
      and/or examples of better translations of parts of the text.

      Czech Version:
      http://www.hrad.cz/president/Havel/speeches/2003/0101.html

      English version:
      http://www.hrad.cz/president/Havel/speeches/2003/0101_uk.html

      Enjoy
    • Kostas Zgafas
      ... how ... Press ... think ... someone ... holy ... story).... ... the ... and ... understand... ... be ... Hi Matej: I basically agree with you that it must
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 3, 2003
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        > Hi list,
        >
        > I translated a couple of things for Havel's office recently (incredible
        how
        > skimpy they are) - an article for The Finnancial Times, a NATO Summit
        Press
        > Conferrence, and now his last NY address (how many of you watched?)....
        >
        > While the two former were straightforward enough (if such a thing exists
        > with Havel speaking or writting) and the only thing I had to do was to
        think
        > of how an English-speaking journalist would write them and go into
        > media-cliche-mode, the latter one was a bit difficult...
        >
        > As always with Havel, it was very wordy and intellectual, although not as
        > good as his early speeches. I choose the approach I somethimes use when I
        > want to make sure the target text will not suffer from me inserting false
        > (non-native speaker) English ideas in it - I translated it fairly close to
        > what it said in the Czech version (not verbatim, but not changing the
        > sentence structure or logic as much as one should do in order to make it
        > sound natural English) - and then had a NS proofread and edit it - hoping
        > that we'll end somewhere between Havel's complicated and wordy version and
        > what would be a natural English-speaking politician's speech.
        >
        > Just before I did the final edit and sent it off on 31st, I panicked and
        > started thinking that it still sounded too Czech and complicated. We had a
        > somewhat heated discussion with my girlfriend (who often interprets for
        > Havel) over how much should one change:
        >
        > - Her approach would be to only use sentences/way things are said that an
        > English NS and a politician would use in a speech, i.e. the closest
        > speech-bits-one-hears-often to what Havel was actually saying (or what we
        > thought he was saying:) - which, in my opninion, while it would make the
        > speech sound better, would also make it a "Bush-speech" (written by
        someone
        > on his team, good and professional, but full of buzzwords, pathos, a bit
        > predictible and boring - unless he gets carried off during one of his
        "holy
        > war" proclamations, or makes a silly mistake, but that's another
        story)....
        >
        > - I argued that would be going too far. I do use a similar technique when
        > translating most of my stuff - technical docs, journalism or PR pieces
        > (think of how a NS working in the relevant field would say something the
        > Czech doc is saying and then write it, no matter if I end up with quite a
        > different sentence structure, etc. - the meaning and "correct style" for
        > that field is the most important thing - of course it doesn't work for all
        > areas, certain types of legal stuff, for example...).
        >
        > I do think that a bit more could have been done to the "Czechness" of the
        > speech, but it was difficult because Havel hardly ever uses sentences
        > shorter than one paragraph and since he usually builds them up to a
        > gradation, they are extremely difficult to break up and still retain all
        the
        > meaning. I didn't do much in the end as it was due in a couple of hours
        and
        > I'd probably end up changing every sentence and it would require another
        > proof.... All we did was to get rid of Havel's favourite multiple "dear
        > friends, dear fellow citizens, etc. etc." and, thanks to the proofreader,
        > changed the way we said some things English speakers wouldn't
        understand...
        >
        > The speech doesn't seem to have been published much in its entirety,
        > (luckily?)...
        >
        > I would appreciate comments on what you think the correct approach would
        be
        > and/or examples of better translations of parts of the text.
        >
        > Czech Version:
        > http://www.hrad.cz/president/Havel/speeches/2003/0101.html
        >
        > English version:
        > http://www.hrad.cz/president/Havel/speeches/2003/0101_uk.html
        >
        > Enjoy

        Hi Matej:

        I basically agree with you that it must be very difficult for an NS to
        translate Havel's speeches. I also think it must be very hard for an NS to
        grasp such lengthy and complicated sentence structure and to make a
        reasonable English text out of it. Havel, with his allmighty ambitions,
        would be surprised to see how "non-western" his sentence structure is. I
        also agree that an NS (e.g. an American) would inevitably "americanize" his
        speech to a certain extent, i.e. an N/S would imprint his/her cultural
        patterns into it as any translator does. However, I think that you
        exaggerate saying that an NS doing it from scratch would make a Bush speech
        out of it, etc.

        Look at this (out of Havel's speeches) :
        "From what we know today about the earliest history of Europe, it is evident
        that the predecessors of our present nations came here from Asia, and that
        even the name of Europe, meaning West, probably mirrors an Asian
        perspective -– when looked at from the East, it is clearly Europe above and
        beyond which the sun goes down every night. Beyond Europe, or west of
        Europe, nothing but an endless ocean was seen in those early days. The
        notion of West thus inevitably coalesced with the image of extinction, the
        end of the world, the sphere beyond the grave, the realm of the shadows.
        Human beings could make their way across the...."

        I don't know for sure if this is made by an NS, but it looks pretty good to
        me. Is it Bush speech? No. It is just a translation of Havel, and he sounds
        rather as a New Age healer recently turned to a Geography teacher :-), not
        as Bush. And yet, it is "westernized" in the sense that it resembles the New
        Age style. And similarly to Havel's New Year speech, an NS would have to
        fight with Havel's lengthy sentences, but it would result just in translated
        Havel, not in Bush. An NS would also add the native fluency to it plus a
        certain cultural pattern of his/her own, but it would not end up in the
        Bush:-)

        I do not see anything wrong with your translation, except that it mght be
        more fluent. But I know it is because of Havel's original, and I can't say
        for sure if an NS doing it from scratch would do it significantly better, I
        just believe so.

        Kostas
      • Matej Klimes
        I also think it must be very hard for an NS to ... Watch out Erik! Somebody s trying to ban English NS s-translations of Havel s texts :) (for those of you who
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 3, 2003
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          I also think it must be very hard for an NS to
          > grasp such lengthy and complicated sentence structure and to make a
          > reasonable English text out of it.

          Watch out Erik! Somebody's trying to ban English NS's-translations of
          Havel's texts :)

          (for those of you who didn't have the opportunity to follow Erik's and mine
          heated debate over whether non NS's should [be allowed to] translate into
          English a little ago, this is a reference to it...)

          [And I'm NOT trying to be mean to either Erik or Kostas here - re: the
          recent heated discussion on proffessions]

          ... No really, my point wasn't whether a NS doing it from scratch would do a
          better job (but I'll wellcome opinions on that too), but whether we should
          (whether one should) un-Havel Havel's sentences to the point that they'd be
          any-other-politician's.

          The example you had here, Kostas, is a bit more straightforward than what we
          were dealing with this time - at least in my opinion - I don't know the
          Czech version of this particular one, but doubt it was much different from
          what the English says, I don't see any cross-cultural or cross-language
          barriers in it... and, come to think of it, it's not your run of the mill
          English politician's speech either, is it?

          BTW, I didn't say a NS doying it from scratch would make it a Bush
          (Bush-type, or closer to it than to one of Havel's - and I'm only
          contrasting a professional politician and a tired and long time at it, but
          still an amateur politician and a playwright here) speech out of it either,
          I think I could do that as well (with a proof later), my point was should
          one do it to the point of changing things he says so that they are easier to
          read??

          [Blimey, almost as long and complicated as one of his, in'it - if less clear
          and to the point] hope you'll get what I mean...

          More comments anyone? Was our version too wordy an too un-English (or worse,
          Czenglish)? Would it be OK to go into typical English speech-lingo
          mode/register and would that still be Havel??


          Matej
        • Matej Klimes
          Erik s 2 cents (hope I m OK re-posting them?): I m interested in comments about the repeated openings ( Dear friends... blabla... Dear friends... blabla... )
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 3, 2003
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            Erik's 2 cents (hope I'm OK re-posting them?):

            I'm interested in comments about the "repeated openings" ("Dear friends...
            blabla... Dear friends... blabla...") phenomenon.

            My own opinion on making it less complex is: even within one language,
            especially one with such a broad pool of speakers, there is a wide range of
            approaches to style; some will use complex language, some simple. True,
            there
            is a tradition of "earthiness" in US speechmaking, dating back to in-person
            tours of politicians in the 19th century, but I think making Havel into
            a "stump speaker" (viz napr.
            http://202.112.78.100/laddernet/libra/story08.htm)
            is a bad idea. Just my 2 cents.

            Matej
          • Simon Vollam
            Hi Matej, Erik, ... ... Translation theory is not my strong point, but I entirely agree with Erik here. Havel is hardly a typical politician, or speaker, even
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 4, 2003
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              Hi Matej, Erik, ...

              > My own opinion on making it less complex is: even within one language,
              > especially one with such a broad pool of speakers, there is a
              > wide range of
              > approaches to style; some will use complex language, some simple. True,
              > there
              > is a tradition of "earthiness" in US speechmaking, dating back to
              > in-person
              > tours of politicians in the 19th century, but I think making Havel into
              > a "stump speaker" (viz napr.
              > http://202.112.78.100/laddernet/libra/story08.htm)
              > is a bad idea. Just my 2 cents.

              Translation theory is not my strong point, but I entirely agree with Erik
              here. Havel is hardly a typical politician, or speaker, even by Czech
              standards. Moreover, he fancies himself as an intellectual, so turning his
              speech into noddy English would be doing him a grave disservice. And I think
              that the target audience, too, would want to know pretty much exactly what
              he was saying, with all its complexities and ambiguities, rather than being
              spoon-fed a simplistic version produced by a translator more worried about
              being accused of Czenglishness than of rising to the challenge of
              reproducing Havel's ideas. True, long and convoluted sentences can be a
              problem in English, but a good writer/editor will have a few tricks up his
              sleeve to deal with those. My approach would be to prune the verbiage as far
              as possible, but without compromising on accuracy. I certainly wouldn't try
              to produce a generic "politician's speech". (Sorry, but I don't have time to
              write a critique of the piece in question).

              The situation would be different if Havel were to say: "Hey, Matty lad, I've
              jotted down this here speech for the shindig at the UN, but it's a bit
              la-di-dah and I'd like you to make the English sound like my old pal
              George's". I guess it would also be different in the case of interpreting,
              where some simplification is inevitable. But that's going outside my field.

              Should English NSs translate such things? Well, Havel is a very difficult
              speaker and it would be difficult to produce something sufficiently
              idiomatic yet accurate without some input from both a NS _and_ a non-NS. Who
              does the translating and who the editing is a moot point, but is probably of
              secondary importance. My preference would be for the NS to translate into
              his own language and the non-NS to check the result for accuracy, but you
              know I don't much like editing :-).

              In short, I think you chose the right approach.

              Best wishes to you all for 2003.

              Simon
            • Milan Condak
              Kr iz ovy dotaz: /ze Skupiny Wordfast_CZ/: Vazeni priatelia. Všetko najlepšie v novom roku. Ospravedlnujem sa ze sa moja otazka nedotyka priamo WordFastu
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 4, 2003
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                Kr'iz'ovy' dotaz: /ze Skupiny Wordfast_CZ/:


                Vazeni priatelia.
                Všetko najlepšie v novom roku.

                Ospravedlnujem sa ze sa moja otazka nedotyka priamo WordFastu
                ale stretol sa niekto s vyrazmi
                "sealing parents", "social parents" a "step parents" ?

                Mozte mi niekto vysvetlit uvedene vyrazy?

                ------------------
                Nasel jsem ve slovnicich "step parents", prvni dva vyrazy ne.
                ------------------
                Vasi odpoved poslu tazateli.
                S pozdravem
                Milan Condak
              • Veronika <meluzinax@SEZNAM.CZ>
                vyrazy jsem nikdy neslysela a sama jsem byla zvedava o sealing jsem nasla jenom neco od mormonu na strance http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/insidtem.htm:
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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                  vyrazy jsem nikdy neslysela a sama jsem byla zvedava


                  o "sealing" jsem nasla jenom neco od mormonu na strance
                  http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/insidtem.htm:

                  "A second form of sealing involves the sealing of children to
                  parents. Children born to a Mormon couple who were married in the
                  temple are already considered "born under the covenant," and need no
                  further sealing. Children born to those not married in the temple,
                  including those of converts, adoptive parents, and "mixed marriages,"
                  must be sealed to their parents in the temple, provided that both
                  living parents have joined the Church and have themselves been sealed
                  to each other."

                  a dale na strance http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sealing

                  tr.v. sealed, seal·ing, seals

                  Mormon Church. To make (a marriage, for example) binding for life;
                  solemnize forever.


                  http://www.helpingmormons.org/sealing.htm

                  TEMPLE CEREMONY FOR SEALING CHILDREN TO PARENTS


                  --------------------------

                  na "social parents" jsem nasla nekolik odkazu na stranky o nahradnich
                  matkach a umelem oplodneni: ( v google jsem hledala +"social parents"
                  +definition)

                  http://www.cesil.com/maggio01/inglese/5pessing.htm

                  "Over the years, this practice has spread and diversified, also
                  allowing the procreation and birth of children whose genetic
                  patrimony is not that of their social parents (the so-called
                  heterologous IVF & ET). "

                  http://www.biol.tsukuba.ac.jp/~macer/Papers/mcgraw.html

                  The options that are available for assisting human reproduction mean
                  that genetic parents, social parents and gestational parents
                  (surrogate mothers) may be different persons

                  http://www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/1999/same_sex/background.html

                  "The Status of Children Amendment Act 1987 applies to children born
                  from assisted human reproductive procedures using donated material.
                  The Act deems the `social parents' to be child's legal parents."


                  doufam, ze jsem aspon trosku pomohla

                  vse nejlepsi do noveho roku

                  veronika


                  --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Milan Condak" <Milan.Condak@w...>
                  wrote:
                  > Kr'iz'ovy' dotaz: /ze Skupiny Wordfast_CZ/:
                  >
                  >
                  > Vazeni priatelia.
                  > V¹etko najlep¹ie v novom roku.
                  >
                  > Ospravedlnujem sa ze sa moja otazka nedotyka priamo WordFastu
                  > ale stretol sa niekto s vyrazmi
                  > "sealing parents", "social parents" a "step parents" ?
                  >
                  > Mozte mi niekto vysvetlit uvedene vyrazy?
                  >
                  > ------------------
                  > Nasel jsem ve slovnicich "step parents", prvni dva vyrazy ne.
                  > ------------------
                  > Vasi odpoved poslu tazateli.
                  > S pozdravem
                  > Milan Condak
                • Milan Condak
                  Veroniko, dekuji. Doufam, ze tazatel a nekteri dalsi ctenari vyuziji zejmena popis metodiky, jak a kde byly informace nalezeny. Rovnez preji vse nejlepsi do
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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                    Veroniko,

                    dekuji. Doufam, ze tazatel a nekteri dalsi ctenari vyuziji zejmena popis
                    metodiky,
                    jak a kde byly informace nalezeny.

                    Rovnez preji vse nejlepsi do noveho roku

                    Milan Condak

                    > -----Pùvodní zpráva-----
                    > Od: Veronika <meluzinax@...> [mailto:meluzinax@...]
                    > Odesláno: 5. ledna 2003 9:45
                    > Komu: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                    > Pøedmìt: [Czechlist] Re: sealing parents, social parents
                    >
                    > vyrazy jsem nikdy neslysela a sama jsem byla zvedava
                    > doufam, ze jsem aspon trosku pomohla
                    > vse nejlepsi do noveho roku
                    > veronika
                  • melvyn.geo <zehrovak@dr.com>
                    Zdravicko a stastny novy rok, Mateji a spol.,Je to docela hezky kus prace a mas tam nekolik reseni tak sikovnych, ze oku= suji tuzku zarlivosti. Jenom obcas
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 5, 2003
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                      Zdravicko a stastny novy rok, Mateji a spol.,

                      Je to docela hezky kus prace a mas tam nekolik reseni tak sikovnych, ze oku=
                      suji tuzku zarlivosti. Jenom obcas vycitim, ze bys mohl trochu efektivneji v=
                      yuzivat vyrazovych zdroju anglictiny, ale asi jsem v pozici Petra Adamka v n=
                      edavno citovane korespondenci, kde rika, ze preklad neni adekvatni, ale ne a=
                      ne najit ten spravny (viz dal)...

                      >my point was should one do it to the point of changing things he says so t=
                      hat they are easier to read??

                      Mam dojem, ze ten tvuj konecny vseobecny pristup vubec neni spatny. Jak rik=
                      aji kolegove, mame obcas oklestit, pretvorit a nekdy rozdelit ty kosate vety=
                      , tak aby text byl pristupnejsi a ctivejsi pro angofonniho ctenare, ale niko=
                      liv na ukor hlavnich myslenek a zvlastniho pololiterarniho stylu. Jak rika S=
                      imon, prekladatel a/nebo korektor musi v rukave mit vselijake finty s vyrazi=
                      vem, aby provedli kvadraturu kruhu presvedcivym zpusobem.

                      Matej zase:
                      >... No really, my point wasn't whether a NS doing it from scratch would do=
                      a better job (but I'll wellcome opinions on that too),

                      Juuu zase tohle?? :) V tomto pripade, kde odborne znalosti nehrajou velkou =
                      ulohu zatimco styl hraje podstatnou ulohu, normalne bych ocekaval, aby ten p=
                      rvotni preklad 'spachal' rodily mluvci ciloveho jazyka. Ale urcite to neni =
                      pevne pravidlo. Ja si nemuzu stezovat na nerodile 'prvotni' prekladatele, p=
                      rotoze sam jsem prelozil mj 400-strankovou knihu ze sve materstiny do cestin=
                      y ale jenom a pouze diky tomu, ze pracuji s prvotridni ceskou korektorkou, k=
                      tera se vyborne vyzna v subtilnostech cestiny i melvynstiny a nikoliv kvuli =
                      tomu, ze ja sam umim poradne vyuzivat ceske vyrazivo. Chyba lavky. Otazka vy=
                      hodnosti rodilych/nerodilych prekladatelu muze byt nekdy druhotna a bezvycho=
                      dna podle me a radsi bych se ptal, jestli funguje tymova prace mezi nimi dob=
                      re nebo spatne.

                      > but whether we should (whether one should) un-Havel Havel's sentences to =
                      the point that they'd be any-other-politician's.

                      Ne. A znovu ne.

                      Kostas napsal:
                      >It is just a translation of Havel, and he sounds rather as a New Age heale=
                      r recently turned to a Geography teacher :-), not as Bush. And yet, it is "w=
                      esternized" in the sense that it resembles the New Age style.

                      Zajimavy postreh. Musim priznat, ze by mi to ihned nenapadlo ale asi castec=
                      ne kvuli tomu, ze ja sam jsem trochu takovy holisticko-homeopaticky a ze kaz=
                      dopadne takove mlhave teoretizovani je u nas podle me dost beznym recnickym =
                      platidlem, aspon ve srovnani s uzem starsi generace tady, a dovolujeme si ta=
                      kove vagni spekulace, aniz bychom ocekavali, ze by je nekdo bral jako vedeck=
                      ou pravdu nebo bozi slovo. Mimochodem, precetl jsem nekde, ze slovo Evropa m=
                      a puvod v nejakem staroegyptskem slovu s vyznamem "cerny", pry kvuli barve p=
                      udy na nasem kontinentu, ale moje zdroje jsou asi i mene vedecke nez ty Havl=
                      ovy.

                      Mateji, nemuzu tady delat vycerpavajici rozbor tveho prekladu, ale rad bych=
                      probral par veci. Nejdriv par zajimavych reseni:

                      V podstate tri roky velkeho revolucniho kvasu,
                      Three years of political turmoil,

                      Asi mas pravdu, ze "revolutionary ferment" nebude uplne na miste a "turmoil=
                      " se mi moc libi, ale urcite bych spojil ten kvas se slovem "great". A nesl=
                      o by to jako "post-revolutionary"?

                      duraznejsi rec
                      assertive talk
                      Strasne se mi to libi. Kdyby to byl sachovy tah, dostal bys oceneni "!!"

                      Predevsim: svet v nas uz davno nevidi jen nejaky zbytek zruseneho statu,
                      First and foremost: the world has long ceased to see us as a left-over of s=
                      ome divided country,
                      !!!

                      k velke hospodarske kriminalite jako te horsi odpovedi na pokuseni, jimiz b=
                      yla privatizace provazena.
                      to rampant white-collar crime, a common ill response to the temptation inhe=
                      rent in Czech privatization.
                      !!! Jenom ze slovo "ill" mi moc nesedi ani tady ani jinde v tomto prekladu.=
                      Asi "negative" je vhodnejsi tady. Anebo asi bych jenom pouzil 'reaction to =
                      the temptations of Czech privatization' a negativnost bych vyjadril telesnym=
                      jazykem. :-)

                      ti, kteri vraceji sprave veci verejnych jeji nejvlastnejsi smysl.
                      prove the forgotten truth that public administration is about the public.
                      !!!! Prohryzl jsem tuzku.

                      prevratny vyznam
                      ground-breaking importance
                      !!!!


                      Jenom jednu hrubku jsem nasel:
                      the problems that laid underneath the surface of the previous regime.

                      Lie/lay/lain. :)

                      Jo a "can not" je normalne "cannot".



                      Priklady kde doporucuji efektivnejsi vyuziti anglickeho vyraziva (ale netvr=
                      dim, ze moje verze jsou optimalni):


                      Bylo by skv?lé, kdyby jejich vstup do r?zných oblastí ve?ejného života vedl=
                      k tomu, že se budeme stále v?cn?ji, d?kladn?ji a bez p?edsudk? zabývat vlas=
                      tní minulostí, bez jejíž otev?ené reflexe nem?žeme být dob?e sami sebou, a ž=
                      e se budeme stále úsp?šn?ji rozcházet s mnoha nedobrými následky zhoubného d=
                      íla, jež p?edchozí režim napáchal v našich duších.

                      Tvoje verze (1)
                      It would be great if the breaking through of these people into various part=
                      s of public life leads to our society more factually, thoroughly and imparti=
                      ally examining its past, without whose reflection we cannot be ourselves. I =
                      also hope it will lead to our successfully parting with many ill consequence=
                      s of the work of destruction the communist regime wreaked upon our souls.

                      Moje varianta (2)
                      Tady citim silnou osobni vyzvu:
                      It would be marvellous if the entry of these people into the various sphere=
                      s of public life made us examine our own past all the more thoroughly, objec=
                      tively and impartially, as we can never truly be ourselves without such open=
                      -minded deliberation. I also hope that we shall increasingly manage to leave=
                      behind us the dire aftermath of the devastation wrought on our souls by the=
                      previous regime.
                      Anebo asi trochu prehanim s tim devastation? No tak destruction.





                      Zvykli jsme si na nove nabyte svobody a plne jich vyuzivame,

                      (1)
                      We have become used to newly-won freedoms and are using them to the fullest=
                      ;

                      (2)
                      We have become accustomed to our newly-won freedoms and we are taking full =
                      advantage of them.
                      Abychom dodrzeli ten havlovsky literarni raz

                      Tu uspesneji, tu mene uspesne

                      (1)
                      Sometimes with more success and sometimes with less,

                      (2)
                      With varying degrees of success,


                      To vsechno je uz davno pryc, patri to do historie, a mne se s odstupem casu=
                      stale vic zda, ze at uz se to tehdy stalo jakkoli divne, je dobre, ze se to=
                      stalo

                      (1):
                      All that is now long-gone--is history--and after all this time, I can not h=
                      elp but feel that no matter how queerly it happened then, it is a good thing=
                      that it happened.


                      (2):
                      Hezke ale 'queerly' neni podle me uplne vono:
                      All that is now long past -- it is now all history -- but as time goes by, =
                      it increasingly seems to me that no matter how strange the way it happened w=
                      as, the fact that it did happen is a good thing.

                      manevrovanim ve sfere moci

                      (1)
                      maneuvering in the sphere of power,

                      (2)
                      jockeying for power


                      koristi k rozdeleni

                      (1)
                      loot to apportion

                      (2)
                      loot/spoils to be shared (out)
                      Apportion je asi moc knizni a neni to bezne slovni spojeni.

                      dohadovani
                      haggling je asi expresivnejsi nez pouhe bargaining?

                      Ve spolecnosti je silna vule k dobrym cinum.

                      (1)
                      our society is full of drive for acts of good will.

                      (2)
                      'Goodwill' je dobry napad ale 'drive' je IMHO tady problematicky. Mimochode=
                      m ja sam nekdy vaham pouzit slovo 'will' jako 'vule', protoze anglofonnim us=
                      im muze znit v urcitych kontextech az moc nietzscheovsky. Nekdy si vyberu 'm=
                      irnejsi' slovo jako 'wish' nebo 'desire' (IMHO 'projev vule' jde casto lepe =
                      jako 'expression of the desire' nez 'manifestation of the will'). Ale nekdy=
                      to jde. Neni nic neanglickeho na vyrazech jako 'political will', 'the will =
                      to succeed', atp a jestli z toho vane nejaky stredoevropsky intelektualni na=
                      dech, to tu snad prilis neuskodi, tak ze v jednom smeru mame:
                      Our society is imbued with a strong will to perform good deeds…
                      Anebo trochu vzdaleneji od originalu ale plynuleji:
                      There is a strong current of goodwill running through our society…
                      Asi bych si konecne vybral tu druhou variantu. :)



                      Jde jen o to uvolnovat ji i tehdy, kdy nestojime tvari v tvar katastrofe, a=
                      systematicky vytvaret klima, ktere ji bude prat.

                      (1)
                      The only complications lie in helping to release this pent-up drive even in=
                      times when we are not standing face to face with catastrophe, and systemati=
                      cally creating a friendly climate for it--one that is charitable towards the=
                      charitable.

                      (2)
                      It is just a matter of giving free rein to this goodwill even when we are n=
                      ot actually faced by disaster, and of consistently providing a congenial env=
                      ironment for it to flourish.

                      Ten tvuj 'pent-up' se mi ale moc libi. Mimochodem ta posledni veta je hezk=
                      e okrasleni! Tam spociva nejaky pribeh?

                      souziti
                      coexist among themselves
                      "Among ourselves" je asi pleonasmus.

                      mnohaleta usili

                      (1)
                      long efforts

                      (2)
                      our endeavours over many years

                      kez by tato zeme byla uz natrvalo a stale zretelneji hezkym a slusnym domov=
                      em nas vsech, kez bychom na ni mohli byt stale hrdejsi!

                      (1)
                      May this country finally, permanently, and more and more distinctly be a fi=
                      ne and respectable home for all of us; may we be more and more proud of it!

                      (2)
                      Tady asi mame spis kompenzovat puvodni lexikalni kosatost s honosnejsim ang=
                      lickym stylem?

                      May this country forever be a finer, fairer home for us all, and may we hav=
                      e cause to be ever prouder of it!

                      Amen?

                      M.
                      ---
                      I may not be perfect but parts of me are excellent.
                      - Inscription on one of Lin's coffee-mugs
                    • Matej Klimes
                      Thanks Melvyn, Simon, Erik, Kostas, Michal... ... oku= ... blush blush... Jenom obcas vycitim, ze bys mohl trochu efektivneji v= ... n= ... a= ... No jo, nikdy
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 6, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Melvyn, Simon, Erik, Kostas, Michal...


                        > Je to docela hezky kus prace a mas tam nekolik reseni tak sikovnych, ze
                        oku=
                        > suji tuzku zarlivosti.

                        blush blush...

                        Jenom obcas vycitim, ze bys mohl trochu efektivneji v=
                        > yuzivat vyrazovych zdroju anglictiny, ale asi jsem v pozici Petra Adamka v
                        n=
                        > edavno citovane korespondenci, kde rika, ze preklad neni adekvatni, ale ne
                        a=
                        > ne najit ten spravny (viz dal)...

                        No jo, nikdy nic neni idealni, (hm, ze? - abych to komentoval spravne po
                        Havlovsku)


                        V tomto pripade, kde odborne znalosti nehrajou velkou =
                        > ulohu zatimco styl hraje podstatnou ulohu, normalne bych ocekaval, aby ten
                        p=
                        > rvotni preklad 'spachal' rodily mluvci ciloveho jazyka.

                        Asi je to skutecne jedno, ja jsem to nechtel jen tak "give away" :) Ale
                        stejne si myslim, ze i dlouhodobe pocesteny NS by nemusel pochopit vsechny
                        (hlavne meziradkove) nuance a Havlismy a tim padem by spoustu vynechal?? Na
                        druhe strane Cech se v nich tak zamota, ze pak potrebuje NS aby to trochu
                        probral, hm, ze?

                        Ja jsem ten preklad prospikoval poznamkama pod carou, kde jsem pro korektora
                        vysvetloval mozne varianty, doplnoval skryte vyznamy atd., aby NS korektor
                        mohl premyslet i o jinych zpusobech... meli jsme to asi probrat jeste mezi
                        sebou, ale na to kolem Silvestra nezbyl cas...


                        > > but whether we should (whether one should) un-Havel Havel's sentences to
                        =
                        > the point that they'd be any-other-politician's.
                        >
                        > Ne. A znovu ne.

                        Thanks for confirming, I started doubting my initial decision...


                        > Asi mas pravdu, ze "revolutionary ferment" nebude uplne na miste a
                        "turmoil=
                        > " se mi moc libi, ale urcite bych spojil ten kvas se slovem "great". A
                        nesl=
                        > o by to jako "post-revolutionary"?

                        But what revolution? Would every English speaker immediately know? That's
                        why I opted for political - that's what it was anyway..

                        >
                        > duraznejsi rec
                        > assertive talk
                        > Strasne se mi to libi. Kdyby to byl sachovy tah, dostal bys oceneni "!!"

                        blush, blush


                        > Predevsim: svet v nas uz davno nevidi jen nejaky zbytek zruseneho statu,
                        > First and foremost: the world has long ceased to see us as a left-over of
                        s=
                        > ome divided country,
                        > !!!

                        Left-over was criticized, actually, but I like it here...

                        >
                        > k velke hospodarske kriminalite jako te horsi odpovedi na pokuseni, jimiz
                        b=
                        > yla privatizace provazena.
                        > to rampant white-collar crime, a common ill response to the temptation
                        inhe=
                        > rent in Czech privatization.
                        > !!! Jenom ze slovo "ill" mi moc nesedi ani tady ani jinde v tomto
                        prekladu.=
                        > Asi "negative" je vhodnejsi tady. Anebo asi bych jenom pouzil 'reaction
                        to =
                        > the temptations of Czech privatization' a negativnost bych vyjadril
                        telesnym=
                        > jazykem. :-)

                        Not from my brains/guts, but it made sense in the sentence to me. Plus the
                        original was so complicated anything sounded better :)

                        > ti, kteri vraceji sprave veci verejnych jeji nejvlastnejsi smysl.
                        > prove the forgotten truth that public administration is about the public.
                        > !!!! Prohryzl jsem tuzku.

                        I couldn't do this one, kept thinking in Czech terms (the Czech here is
                        actually VERY PS [Polit-Speak] and un-Havel) - thanks to NS proofreaders! I
                        actually italicized public to give it an extra touch, but that got lost in
                        .html conversion along with other fine formatting.

                        > Jenom jednu hrubku jsem nasel:
                        > the problems that laid underneath the surface of the previous regime.
                        >
                        > Lie/lay/lain. :)
                        >
                        > Jo a "can not" je normalne "cannot".

                        Oouch! Back to Cambridge basic....


                        > Priklady kde doporucuji efektivnejsi vyuziti anglickeho vyraziva (ale
                        netvr=
                        > dim, ze moje verze jsou optimalni):

                        I agree with all your improvements, thanks, I'll run it past you next time
                        if there's time :)

                        > jockeying for power

                        Not too BrENG?

                        > dohadovani
                        > haggling je asi expresivnejsi nez pouhe bargaining?

                        Well, haggling was the first word that came to me, but I saw Arab markets at
                        the same time and wasn't sure if it wasn't too informal a word for a big
                        speech.


                        > Ten tvuj 'pent-up' se mi ale moc libi. Mimochodem ta posledni veta je
                        hezk=
                        > e okrasleni! Tam spociva nejaky pribeh?

                        They both are the proofreader's


                        > Amen?

                        Definitely, and thanks.

                        Matej
                      • melvyn.geo <zehrovak@dr.com>
                        ... Kazda strana samozrejme ma svoje slabosti a proto jsem zduraznil tu tymovou praci (neboli vzajemnou spolupraci jak rikame my pocesteni cizi certi),
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 8, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Matej Klimes" <mklimes@m...> wrote:

                          >Ale stejne si myslim, ze i dlouhodobe pocesteny NS by nemusel pochopit vsechny (hlavne meziradkove) nuance a Havlismy a tim padem by spoustu vynechal?? Na druhe strane Cech se v nich tak zamota, ze pak potrebuje NS aby to trochu probral, hm, ze?

                          Kazda strana samozrejme ma svoje slabosti a proto jsem zduraznil tu 'tymovou praci' (neboli 'vzajemnou spolupraci' jak rikame my pocesteni cizi certi), spis nez otazku, kdo to nejlip umi - ale jsem prece zvedav - dej mi priklad meziradkove nuance v tomto textu, ktery by asi prehledl zkuseny NS.

                          Melvyn napsal:
                          >> Asi mas pravdu, ze "revolutionary ferment" nebude uplne na miste a "turmoil" se mi moc libi, ale urcite bych spojil ten kvas se slovem "great". A neslo by to jako "post-revolutionary"?

                          Matej se potom vyjadril v tomto smyslu:
                          >But what revolution? Would every English speaker immediately know? That's why I opted for political - that's what it was anyway...

                          Rekl bych, ze "sametova revoluce" je klicovy pojem, ktery poskytuje spolecnou pudu i pro Havlovo mysleni i pro vedomost prumerneho gramotniho anglofona, anebo kecam? Sice je nekde nekdo v anglofonnim svete, kdo nikdy neslysel o sametaku ale doufal bych, ze prave z takoveho textu by se o nem aspon neco dozvedel. Anebo skutecnost ze nejde o klasickou ozbrojenou revoluci je duvod, abychom se prestali o ni takhle zminovat, i kdyz se tento catchphrase globalne ujal?

                          Muj hlavni problem s timto slovnim spojenim je spis to, ze pro me slovo "ferment" ('kvas') oznacuje bublani predtim, nez to vsechno prdne, spis nez neporadek, ktery doprovazi a nasleduje prevratne zmeny, o kterem vlastne mluvi Havel, a proto se mi ten tvuj "turmoil" tak libi. Asi jsem vinen tim, ze chci nejak "zlepsovat" a objasnovat puvodni vyznam ale tim bych nechtel vylit s vanickou i dite, tj klicovy pojem, ktery se bezne spojuje s Havlem.

                          >>> Predevsim: svet v nas uz davno nevidi jen nejaky zbytek zruseneho statu,
                          >>> First and foremost: the world has long ceased to see us as a left-over of some divided country,

                          >> !!!

                          >Left-over was criticized, actually, but I like it here...

                          No, nekdy se mluvi take napr o "rump Yugoslavia" ale slovo 'left-over(s?)' je pekne vystizne a slovo "divided" hezky roztalo gordicky uzel slova 'zruseny' IMO.

                          >> jockeying for power

                          >Not too BrENG?

                          CNN - Political parties jockey for power in India
                          www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/12/india/

                          I kdyby nejaky anglofon nikdy v zivote neslysel tento vyraz, coz mi pripada velmi nepravdepodobne (ale zaoceansti kolegove me snad opravi), jenom si ma predstavit, co delaji zokejove kdyz se priblizuji k cili a ihned je to vsechno samozrejme a vystizne, ne? Mimochodem casteji je to "jockeying for position".


                          >> dohadovani
                          >> haggling je asi expresivnejsi nez pouhe bargaining?

                          >Well, haggling was the first word that came to me, but I saw Arab markets at the same time and wasn't sure if it wasn't too informal a word for a big speech.

                          Nemame se tady snazit i o urcity (polo)literarni smrnc spis nez o ciste formalni styl?

                          Zase pred tebou smekam!

                          Melvyn
                          ---

                          "Makes you think, when you think about it, don't you think?"
                          "I don't know. I've never really thought about it."
                          - Presumed by Michael to have been overheard by Melvyn on a Manchester bus.
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