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Re: TERM: Veletove

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  • Irena Steinerová
    Hi Alastair, - ... z ... Encyklopedicky slovnik says: Veleti - svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici (no diacriticals here) a usedlych zapadne od dolni
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 3, 1999
      Hi Alastair,
      -

      >>.... kter� n�le�elo z�ejm� ke svazku Velet�, star�ch p��tel �ech�, proto�e
      z
      >veletsk�ch Havolan� poch�zela Boleslavova matka Drahom�ra....
      >
      Encyklopedicky slovnik says:
      Veleti - svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici (no diacriticals here) a
      usedlych zapadne od dolni Odry

      I hope it will be of any help. As for the meeting over the archeological
      dictionary, next Wednesday is fine (noon or after).
      Irena
      >
      >>

      >
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    • Melvyn Clarke
      Veleti, svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici a usedlych zap. od dolni Odry (Ilustrovany encyklopedicky slovnik - Academia) In Von Lutzow s Bohemia - An
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 3, 1999
        Veleti, svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici a usedlych zap. od dolni
        Odry (Ilustrovany
        encyklopedicky slovnik - Academia)

        In Von Lutzow's "Bohemia - An Historical Sketch" (originally published 1896,
        republished in
        English translation 1910 + 1939, and so full of anglicized forms it makes
        Central Europe
        sound like the Home Counties) I find:

        The Slavonic tribes of the Obotrites, Wiltes and Sorbes - whose dwelling
        places may be
        roughly identified with Mecklenburg, Brandenburg and Saxony - were
        successively overcome
        by the Carlovingian monarchs.

        Brandenburg is just left of the Oder so is it perhaps these "Wiltes" that
        you are looking for?

        In the list of names at the back of the BRD I find Havola = the Havel.


        Melvyn
      • Alastair Millar
        Some digging around on the internet revealed an interesting paper on the Germanisation of the lands between the Saale-Elbe and Oder . (Well, it was
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
          Some digging around on the internet revealed an interesting paper on the
          "Germanisation of the lands between the Saale-Elbe and Oder". (Well, it was
          interesting for me, anyway).

          This notes that
          [quote]
          The names used to describe the Slavic inhabitants of these region is a
          confusing issue due to lack of commonly accepted terminology.Recently, it
          has become more common to call them Polabians or Polabs, instead of
          Wends.There are also some problems with their division.In the following work
          three large tribal groups are distinguished: Obodrites in north-west, Veleti
          in north-east and Sorbs in the south.
          [unquote]

          Melvyn - mea maxima culpa: I have managed to lose your post on this topic.
          Does the third name here (Obodrites) bear any relation to the last of your
          trio (Wiltes, Sorbes + ???).

          Alastair
        • Melvyn Clarke
          ... Obotrites - as you point out and as the name _An_ Historical Sketch suggests, the language used is rather antique. I always thought Sorbs = Wends =
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
            >
            >From: "Alastair Millar" <alastair@...>
            >
            >Some digging around on the internet revealed an interesting paper on the
            >"Germanisation of the lands between the Saale-Elbe and Oder". (Well, it was
            >interesting for me, anyway).
            >
            >This notes that
            >[quote]
            >The names used to describe the Slavic inhabitants of these region is a
            >confusing issue due to lack of commonly accepted terminology.Recently, it
            >has become more common to call them Polabians or Polabs, instead of
            >Wends.There are also some problems with their division.In the following
            >work
            >three large tribal groups are distinguished: Obodrites in north-west,
            >Veleti
            >in north-east and Sorbs in the south.
            >[unquote]
            >
            >Melvyn - mea maxima culpa: I have managed to lose your post on this topic.
            >Does the third name here (Obodrites) bear any relation to the last of your
            >trio (Wiltes, Sorbes + ???).

            Obotrites - as you point out and as the name _An_ Historical Sketch
            suggests, the language used is rather antique.

            I always thought Sorbs = Wends = Lusatians, the small Slavonic enclave in
            Germany speaking their own language to this day. I have seen it in bilingual
            railway timetables for the region - it is quite comprehensible to a Czech
            speaker.

            BTW We have a village across the lake from us called Srby, which got its
            name, apparently, from a community of Lusatian stone-masons who settled
            there in the 19th century to work the local quarries.

            Melvyn
          • Alastair Millar
            Melvyn - Many thanks for your confirmation - we ve cracked it! ... bilingual ... These are indeed the same people. I also had always thought that Wends =
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
              Melvyn -

              Many thanks for your confirmation - we've cracked it!

              >I always thought Sorbs = Wends = Lusatians, the small Slavonic enclave in
              >Germany speaking their own language to this day. I have seen it in
              bilingual
              >railway timetables for the region - it is quite comprehensible to a Czech
              >speaker.


              These are indeed the same people. I also had always thought that Wends =
              Sorbs. We live and learn, but were at least keeping good company in our
              ignorance - Chambers' defines Sorb as "a Wend" and Sorbian, Sorbish as
              "Wendish".

              I haven't seen "Lusatians" used, personally - whenever I have seen it,
              "Lusatian" has been used to refer to the geographic region rather than the
              inhabitants thereof. (Hence the usual historical term "Lusatian Sorbs"
              rather than just "Lusatians" - well, usual in the rather rarefied academic
              texts that I have come across, anyway: I'm not at all clued up on the more
              popular stuff...)

              Cheers!

              Alastair
            • Melvyn Clarke
              Chambers defines Sorb as a Wend and Sorbian, Sorbish as ... Crumbs ... The following was lifted from the British Library Slavonic and East European
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
                Chambers' defines Sorb as "a Wend" and Sorbian, Sorbish as
                >"Wendish".

                Crumbs


                >
                >I haven't seen "Lusatians" used, personally - whenever I have seen it,
                >"Lusatian" has been used to refer to the geographic region rather than the
                >inhabitants thereof. (Hence the usual historical term "Lusatian Sorbs"
                >rather than just "Lusatians" - well, usual in the rather rarefied academic
                >texts that I have come across, anyway: I'm not at all clued up on the more
                >popular stuff...)
                >
                The following was lifted from the British Library Slavonic and East
                European Collection page on

                http://portico.bl.uk/collections/slavonic/lusatia.html

                Lusatian Sorbs, also known as Lusatians, Sorbs or Wends, are perhaps the
                least known of
                the Slavonic peoples and, because
                of their name, are often confused with the Yugoslav Serbs. Lusatians are the
                last survivors of
                the once numerous Slavonic
                tribes who inhabited a large area between the rivers Elbe and Oder. They now
                form only a
                pocket of Slavonic speaking
                peoples occupying the South East corner of Germany. In the south, Lusatia
                borders on to the
                Czech Republic while its
                Eastern frontier is provided by the Oder/Niesse river which forms Germany's
                boundary with
                Poland.


                From this page you can click on to their Czech holdings, which are evidently
                some of the largest outside Czecho.

                Melvyn
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