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TERM: Veletove

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  • Alastair Millar
    Help! I have come across this line in a translation that I am doing: .... které náleželo zøejmì ke svazku Veletù, starých pøátel Èechù, protože z
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 3, 1999
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      Help!
      I have come across this line in a translation that I am doing:

      .... kter� n�le�elo z�ejm� ke svazku Velet�, star�ch p��tel �ech�, proto�e z
      veletsk�ch Havolan� poch�zela Boleslavova matka Drahom�ra....

      (without diacriticals - ktere nalezelo zrejme ke svazku Veletu, starych
      pratel Cechu, protoze z veletskych Havloanu pochazela Boleslava matka
      Drahomira...)

      Not having a historical atlas to hand, can someone please tell me who the
      "Veletove" were, and where Havolan is? (Is there a relationship with the
      river Havel in Germany?) And how should I translate these into English?

      Thank you!

      Alastair
    • Irena Steinerová
      Hi Alastair, - ... z ... Encyklopedicky slovnik says: Veleti - svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici (no diacriticals here) a usedlych zapadne od dolni
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 3, 1999
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        Hi Alastair,
        -

        >>.... kter� n�le�elo z�ejm� ke svazku Velet�, star�ch p��tel �ech�, proto�e
        z
        >veletsk�ch Havolan� poch�zela Boleslavova matka Drahom�ra....
        >
        Encyklopedicky slovnik says:
        Veleti - svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici (no diacriticals here) a
        usedlych zapadne od dolni Odry

        I hope it will be of any help. As for the meeting over the archeological
        dictionary, next Wednesday is fine (noon or after).
        Irena
        >
        >>

        >
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      • Melvyn Clarke
        Veleti, svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici a usedlych zap. od dolni Odry (Ilustrovany encyklopedicky slovnik - Academia) In Von Lutzow s Bohemia - An
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 3, 1999
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          Veleti, svaz slovanskych kmenu zvanych tez Lutici a usedlych zap. od dolni
          Odry (Ilustrovany
          encyklopedicky slovnik - Academia)

          In Von Lutzow's "Bohemia - An Historical Sketch" (originally published 1896,
          republished in
          English translation 1910 + 1939, and so full of anglicized forms it makes
          Central Europe
          sound like the Home Counties) I find:

          The Slavonic tribes of the Obotrites, Wiltes and Sorbes - whose dwelling
          places may be
          roughly identified with Mecklenburg, Brandenburg and Saxony - were
          successively overcome
          by the Carlovingian monarchs.

          Brandenburg is just left of the Oder so is it perhaps these "Wiltes" that
          you are looking for?

          In the list of names at the back of the BRD I find Havola = the Havel.


          Melvyn
        • Alastair Millar
          Some digging around on the internet revealed an interesting paper on the Germanisation of the lands between the Saale-Elbe and Oder . (Well, it was
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
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            Some digging around on the internet revealed an interesting paper on the
            "Germanisation of the lands between the Saale-Elbe and Oder". (Well, it was
            interesting for me, anyway).

            This notes that
            [quote]
            The names used to describe the Slavic inhabitants of these region is a
            confusing issue due to lack of commonly accepted terminology.Recently, it
            has become more common to call them Polabians or Polabs, instead of
            Wends.There are also some problems with their division.In the following work
            three large tribal groups are distinguished: Obodrites in north-west, Veleti
            in north-east and Sorbs in the south.
            [unquote]

            Melvyn - mea maxima culpa: I have managed to lose your post on this topic.
            Does the third name here (Obodrites) bear any relation to the last of your
            trio (Wiltes, Sorbes + ???).

            Alastair
          • Melvyn Clarke
            ... Obotrites - as you point out and as the name _An_ Historical Sketch suggests, the language used is rather antique. I always thought Sorbs = Wends =
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
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              >
              >From: "Alastair Millar" <alastair@...>
              >
              >Some digging around on the internet revealed an interesting paper on the
              >"Germanisation of the lands between the Saale-Elbe and Oder". (Well, it was
              >interesting for me, anyway).
              >
              >This notes that
              >[quote]
              >The names used to describe the Slavic inhabitants of these region is a
              >confusing issue due to lack of commonly accepted terminology.Recently, it
              >has become more common to call them Polabians or Polabs, instead of
              >Wends.There are also some problems with their division.In the following
              >work
              >three large tribal groups are distinguished: Obodrites in north-west,
              >Veleti
              >in north-east and Sorbs in the south.
              >[unquote]
              >
              >Melvyn - mea maxima culpa: I have managed to lose your post on this topic.
              >Does the third name here (Obodrites) bear any relation to the last of your
              >trio (Wiltes, Sorbes + ???).

              Obotrites - as you point out and as the name _An_ Historical Sketch
              suggests, the language used is rather antique.

              I always thought Sorbs = Wends = Lusatians, the small Slavonic enclave in
              Germany speaking their own language to this day. I have seen it in bilingual
              railway timetables for the region - it is quite comprehensible to a Czech
              speaker.

              BTW We have a village across the lake from us called Srby, which got its
              name, apparently, from a community of Lusatian stone-masons who settled
              there in the 19th century to work the local quarries.

              Melvyn
            • Alastair Millar
              Melvyn - Many thanks for your confirmation - we ve cracked it! ... bilingual ... These are indeed the same people. I also had always thought that Wends =
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
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                Melvyn -

                Many thanks for your confirmation - we've cracked it!

                >I always thought Sorbs = Wends = Lusatians, the small Slavonic enclave in
                >Germany speaking their own language to this day. I have seen it in
                bilingual
                >railway timetables for the region - it is quite comprehensible to a Czech
                >speaker.


                These are indeed the same people. I also had always thought that Wends =
                Sorbs. We live and learn, but were at least keeping good company in our
                ignorance - Chambers' defines Sorb as "a Wend" and Sorbian, Sorbish as
                "Wendish".

                I haven't seen "Lusatians" used, personally - whenever I have seen it,
                "Lusatian" has been used to refer to the geographic region rather than the
                inhabitants thereof. (Hence the usual historical term "Lusatian Sorbs"
                rather than just "Lusatians" - well, usual in the rather rarefied academic
                texts that I have come across, anyway: I'm not at all clued up on the more
                popular stuff...)

                Cheers!

                Alastair
              • Melvyn Clarke
                Chambers defines Sorb as a Wend and Sorbian, Sorbish as ... Crumbs ... The following was lifted from the British Library Slavonic and East European
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 5, 1999
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                  Chambers' defines Sorb as "a Wend" and Sorbian, Sorbish as
                  >"Wendish".

                  Crumbs


                  >
                  >I haven't seen "Lusatians" used, personally - whenever I have seen it,
                  >"Lusatian" has been used to refer to the geographic region rather than the
                  >inhabitants thereof. (Hence the usual historical term "Lusatian Sorbs"
                  >rather than just "Lusatians" - well, usual in the rather rarefied academic
                  >texts that I have come across, anyway: I'm not at all clued up on the more
                  >popular stuff...)
                  >
                  The following was lifted from the British Library Slavonic and East
                  European Collection page on

                  http://portico.bl.uk/collections/slavonic/lusatia.html

                  Lusatian Sorbs, also known as Lusatians, Sorbs or Wends, are perhaps the
                  least known of
                  the Slavonic peoples and, because
                  of their name, are often confused with the Yugoslav Serbs. Lusatians are the
                  last survivors of
                  the once numerous Slavonic
                  tribes who inhabited a large area between the rivers Elbe and Oder. They now
                  form only a
                  pocket of Slavonic speaking
                  peoples occupying the South East corner of Germany. In the south, Lusatia
                  borders on to the
                  Czech Republic while its
                  Eastern frontier is provided by the Oder/Niesse river which forms Germany's
                  boundary with
                  Poland.


                  From this page you can click on to their Czech holdings, which are evidently
                  some of the largest outside Czecho.

                  Melvyn
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