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Re: [Czechlist] TBfaGE: zamek

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  • Simon Vaughan
    ... I ve taken to using chateau , primarily because: a) it works in names (unlike stately home or mansion ); b) Czech zamky are generally built in
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 27, 2002
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      > How do y'all deal with "zamek" in the usual case where it is some guy's,
      > err, stately home in Prdelkovice nad Nicem? Even Fronek can't come up
      > with anything less wrong than "stately home." I usually wind up using
      > "mansion," but I always feel a bit of trepidation, as FWIW no translation
      > dictionary supports me in this. Still AHD does give "a large imposing
      > residence" as one meaning, and it does essentially feel right to me.

      I've taken to using 'chateau', primarily because:

      a) it works in names (unlike 'stately home' or 'mansion');
      b) Czech zamky are generally built in continental styles that have no
      counterpart in Britain.

      I know 'chateau' is usually restricted to stately homes in France, but even
      so it seems more appropriate than any of the alternatives.

      If the residence in question belonged to a bishop or a prince, or if it's
      grand enough, I might consider 'palace'.

      Simon
    • erisdiscordia.rm
      I m not sure what you mean by chateau works in names (unlike [...] mansion . Type mansion into Google and you ll get OODLES of named mansions.
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 27, 2002
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        I'm not sure what you mean by "chateau works in names (unlike
        [...] 'mansion'." Type "mansion" into Google and you'll get OODLES of
        named mansions.

        Incidentally--chateau sounds intriguing, but I'd be surprised to hear
        of a zamek impressive enough that I would be willing to call it a
        palace... maybe I've just had my standards distorted by Walt Disney :)

        Erik

        --- In Czechlist@y..., "Simon Vaughan" <rachelandsimon@v...> wrote:
        > > How do y'all deal with "zamek" in the usual case where it is some
        guy's,
        > > err, stately home in Prdelkovice nad Nicem? Even Fronek can't
        come up
        > > with anything less wrong than "stately home." I usually wind up
        using
        > > "mansion," but I always feel a bit of trepidation, as FWIW no
        translation
        > > dictionary supports me in this. Still AHD does give "a large
        imposing
        > > residence" as one meaning, and it does essentially feel right to
        me.
        >
        > I've taken to using 'chateau', primarily because:
        >
        > a) it works in names (unlike 'stately home' or 'mansion');
        > b) Czech zamky are generally built in continental styles that have
        no
        > counterpart in Britain.
        >
        > I know 'chateau' is usually restricted to stately homes in France,
        but even
        > so it seems more appropriate than any of the alternatives.
        >
        > If the residence in question belonged to a bishop or a prince, or
        if it's
        > grand enough, I might consider 'palace'.
        >
        > Simon
      • Simon Vaughan
        My fellow Americans! ... I can t find very much evidence for mansion used in names, at least at reputable sites. Moreover, I can t think of any grand
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 28, 2002
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          My fellow Americans!

          > I'm not sure what you mean by "chateau works in names (unlike
          > [...] 'mansion'." Type "mansion" into Google and you'll get OODLES of
          > named mansions.

          I can't find very much evidence for 'mansion' used in names, at least at
          reputable sites. Moreover, I can't think of any grand stately home where I
          was brought up--the Surrey Hills--whose name contains the word 'mansion'.
          Mostly no generic name is given, unless it refers to the estate as a whole:

          Hatchland's
          Polesden Lacey
          West Horsley Place
          Clandon Park

          > Incidentally--chateau sounds intriguing, but I'd be surprised to hear
          > of a zamek impressive enough that I would be willing to call it a
          > palace... maybe I've just had my standards distorted by Walt Disney :)

          Kromeriz could certainly be described as a palace, as it was the seat of an
          archbishop. Jaromerice could possibly as well, on account of its size.

          Incidentally, Lednice and Valtice are named as chateaux on UNESCO's World
          Heritage List.

          > >"Manor" or "manor house"? "Manse"?
          >
          > I thought a manse was mainly the residence of a Protestant pastor. Manor
          > is good. If it's really huge, it could be a chateau (which is my usual
          > translation of a zamek owned by royalty but that isn't large enough to
          > qualify as a castle).

          'Manor' works well in names, but no zamek I've seen, no matter how small,
          has the feel of a manor. And I'm not sure that a French chateau has to be
          very large.

          Simon
        • JPKIRCHNER@aol.com
          ... In the US, at least where I live, the word mansion can be used in a proper name, usually following the name of the original owner. For example, the
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 28, 2002
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            In a message dated 4/28/02 4:39:13 AM, rachelandsimon@... writes:

            >I can't find very much evidence for 'mansion' used in names, at least at
            >reputable sites. Moreover, I can't think of any grand stately home where
            >I was brought up--the Surrey Hills--whose name contains the word 'mansion'.
            >Mostly no generic name is given, unless it refers to the estate as a whole:

            In the US, at least where I live, the word "mansion" can be used in a proper
            name, usually following the name of the original owner. For example, the
            mayor of Detroit traditionally lives in "the Manoogian Mansion" (Alex
            Manoogian was the man who invented the type of tap where you get hot or cold
            water, or any gradation between, using only one handle, rather than two
            knobs), and the Hare Krishnas live in "the Fisher Mansion" (Larry and Max
            Fisher founded a company that made the bodies of General Motors cars).

            If we talk about the mansion and some large grounds surrounding it, we say
            "estate", such as "the Edsel Ford Estate" or "the Dodge Estate".

            >And I'm not sure that a French chateau has to be very large.

            At least in English, according to my feel for the word anyway, a "chateau"
            has to be large, but cannot be huge, so it fits within the size range of a
            zamek. In French it's a different story.

            Jamie
          • Zemedelec@aol.com
            As I understood it (while living/studying in Brno) hrady were for military/defensive uses, zamky weren t. That was the distinction the Czechs I ran into
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 28, 2002
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              As I understood it (while living/studying in Brno) hrady were for
              military/defensive uses, zamky weren't. That was the distinction the Czechs
              I ran into (mostly language teachers) made.
            • Rubková
              Not realy, hrady were built for living and defensive purposes earlier in Middle Ages, but castles were built from 17th century onwards and were used just for
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 28, 2002
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                Not realy, hrady were built for living and defensive purposes earlier in
                Middle Ages, but castles were built from 17th century onwards and were used
                just for living.

                Sarka

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Zemedelec@... [mailto:Zemedelec@...]
                Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:28 PM
                To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TBfaGE: zamek


                As I understood it (while living/studying in Brno) hrady were for
                military/defensive uses, zamky weren't. That was the distinction the Czechs
                I ran into (mostly language teachers) made.


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              • Michael Grant
                ... Then there s those pesky tvrze .... Michael -- I would only use a Wintel system if paid by the hour. - Philip Machanick
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 30, 2002
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                  On 4/28/02 11:27 AM, "Zemedelec@..." <Zemedelec@...> wrote:

                  > As I understood it (while living/studying in Brno) hrady were for
                  > military/defensive uses, zamky weren't. That was the distinction the Czechs
                  > I ran into (mostly language teachers) made.

                  Then there's those pesky 'tvrze'....
                  Michael

                  --
                  "I would only use a Wintel system if paid by the hour."
                  - Philip Machanick
                • Michael Grant
                  ... So a military structure from the 17th century or later would be, what, a pevnost? No fortified residences since then? What about a stately but unfortified
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 30, 2002
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                    On 4/28/02 1:40 PM, "Rubková" <rubkova@...> wrote:

                    > Not realy, hrady were built for living and defensive purposes earlier in
                    > Middle Ages, but castles were built from 17th century onwards and were used
                    > just for living.

                    So a military structure from the 17th century or later would be, what, a
                    pevnost? No fortified residences since then? What about a stately but
                    unfortified residence from the Middle Ages (or did everything have to be
                    fortified back then)?

                    Michael

                    --
                    Now with LRF support and LBL technology!
                  • Martin Janda
                    Since 17th century, AFAIK no residences were fortified - but there were pevnosti (special military bases - strongholds?). Sure, soldiers were living in these,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 30, 2002
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                      Since 17th century, AFAIK no residences were fortified - but there were
                      pevnosti (special military bases - strongholds?). Sure, soldiers were living
                      in these, but they were no longer called residence :-)
                      As to tvrz, I am no historian, but I would imagine a small hrad in up to
                      15th century, usually owned by low gentry (zeman, rytir)
                      In Middle Ages (up to 15 th century, right?), no one rich enough to worth
                      some pillage would be that insane not to fortify his/her house, except for
                      middle class houses protected by city walls (but these were just "houses"
                      (mestansky/kupecky dum). In earlier times, (12-13th), even these were
                      sometimes fortified (vezovy dum, opevneny dum)

                      HTH
                      Martin

                      > Not realy, hrady were built for living and defensive purposes earlier in
                      > Middle Ages, but castles were built from 17th century onwards and were
                      used
                      > just for living.

                      So a military structure from the 17th century or later would be, what, a
                      pevnost? No fortified residences since then? What about a stately but
                      unfortified residence from the Middle Ages (or did everything have to be
                      fortified back then)?

                      Michael
                    • Rubková
                      ... pevnost? That s right. ... did everything have to be fortified back then)? All stately residences from Middle Ages were in fact fortified. Castles, or
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 1, 2002
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                        >So a military structure from the 17th century or later would be, what, a
                        pevnost?

                        That's right.

                        > What about a stately but unfortified residence from the Middle Ages (or
                        did everything have to be fortified back then)?

                        All stately residences from Middle Ages were in fact fortified. Castles, or
                        unfortified stately residences started to be built in period when
                        fortification of residences was not further needed and was in fact useless
                        especially because of development of weapons. We got this esplanation, which
                        sounds quite reasonable, during our studies.

                        Sarka
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Michael Grant [mailto:transman@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 5:18 PM
                        To: Czechlist
                        Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TBfaGE: zamek


                        On 4/28/02 1:40 PM, "Rubková" <rubkova@...> wrote:

                        > Not realy, hrady were built for living and defensive purposes earlier in
                        > Middle Ages, but castles were built from 17th century onwards and were
                        used
                        > just for living.

                        No fortified residences since then?

                        Michael

                        --
                        Now with LRF support and LBL technology!



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                      • Rubková
                        Tvrz was small a fortified residence of a poor nobleman, whose title was zeman . Sarka ... From: Michael Grant [mailto:transman@bdanube.com] Sent: Tuesday,
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 1, 2002
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                          Tvrz was small a fortified residence of a poor nobleman, whose title was
                          "zeman".

                          Sarka

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Michael Grant [mailto:transman@...]
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 5:15 PM
                          To: Czechlist
                          Subject: Re: [Czechlist] TBfaGE: zamek


                          On 4/28/02 11:27 AM, "Zemedelec@..." <Zemedelec@...> wrote:

                          > As I understood it (while living/studying in Brno) hrady were for
                          > military/defensive uses, zamky weren't. That was the distinction the
                          Czechs
                          > I ran into (mostly language teachers) made.

                          Then there's those pesky 'tvrze'....
                          Michael

                          --
                          "I would only use a Wintel system if paid by the hour."
                          - Philip Machanick



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                        • Michael Grant
                          ... I think fortress covers pevnost pretty well. Stronghold is broader. Michael -- You don t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body. - C.S. Lewis
                          Message 12 of 12 , May 1, 2002
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                            On 4/30/02 11:40 AM, "Martin Janda" <martinjanda@...> wrote:

                            > Since 17th century, AFAIK no residences were fortified - but there were
                            > pevnosti (special military bases - strongholds?)

                            I think "fortress" covers "pevnost" pretty well. "Stronghold" is broader.

                            Michael

                            --
                            "You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body."
                            - C.S. Lewis
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